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Old 25th March 2017, 16:34   #31
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Default Re: Lexus ES 300h launched in India at Rs. 55 lakh

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
People said the same thing when Qualis was launched. I am sure people in India want a luxury sedan that they can drive without worrying when is it going to break down or when something is going to stop working. Give it time and people will start appreciating the attributes of the Lexus brand. Not for nothing they are the largest selling luxury car brand in USA.
Lol.
Does Lexus cost 2 and 3 times in USA at the cost at which it is sold in India?

Does Lexus have the same brand value as a Mercedes Benz and BMW in India?

Will Lexus offer the same experience which they offer abroad? Heck, I've heard that servicing will be done in the same place where other Toyotas are done.

Our Indian market is very different from the one abroad. Here, manufacturers charge the Indian rip off tax and even after that provide sub standard product. This Lexus is a car which can't even hold a candle to the C Class, let alone compete with the E Class.

Lexus is a success abroad because of VFM angle compared to it's competition.

Clearly they are targeting the chauffeur driven by offering CVT but step into the E Class and I'm damn sure the customer will not leave the Merc Showroom.

For Lexus it is too little and too late.

Last edited by The Brutailer : 25th March 2017 at 16:41.
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Old 25th March 2017, 17:22   #32
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Default Re: Lexus ES 300h launched in India at Rs. 55 lakh

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
Lol.
Does Lexus cost 2 and 3 times in USA at the cost at which it is sold in India?
So are BMW's and the Mercs. How much costly is Lexus compared to an E class, 5 series or a XF?

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
Does Lexus have the same brand value as a Mercedes Benz and BMW in India?
We happily buy a Toyota van for 20+ lakhs and we buy a Fortuner for more than 30 lakhs. I guess I have made my point.

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
Will Lexus offer the same experience which they offer abroad? Heck, I've heard that servicing will be done in the same place where other Toyotas are done.
What experience are you talking about? One thing that is common to all Toyota's no matter where they are sold in the world and that is absolute reliability and that matters more to buyers than a couple of fancy sofa's and a TV in the service lounge room. Ask an Innova buyer if he would switch brands because service lounge room is fancier for another brand. Speaking of service, we have more horror stories about Mercedes or any other german brand when it comes to service and reliability than Toyota. Infact I can't remember a thread where someone wasnt happy with Toyota's service or reliability.

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
This Lexus is a car which can't even hold a candle to the C Class, let alone compete with the E Class.
A more qualified statement would be that a Mercedes C Class is less reliable in India than an Alto. Coming back to your assertion anyway, the Lexus is also a rear wheel drive, interiors quality is as good if not better and reliability is on a different planet. So how does it not hold a candle? Can you quantify your assertion?

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
Lexus is a success abroad because of VFM angle compared to it's competition.

Clearly they are targeting the chauffeur driven by offering CVT but step into the E Class and I'm damn sure the customer will not leave the Merc Showroom.

For Lexus it is too little and too late.
Time will tell but reliability and peace of mind is something that even luxury car buyers look when purchasing a car in India. It may not be a success initially but I am pretty sure it will be once word of mouth spreads.

Last edited by GTO : 27th March 2017 at 13:07. Reason: STRICTLY no rude posts on Team-BHP
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Old 25th March 2017, 17:53   #33
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Default Re: Lexus ES 300h launched in India at Rs. 55 lakh

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
So are BMW's and the Mercs. How much costly is Lexus compared to an E class, 5 series or a XF?
Exactly my point. They have priced the car equal to E Class but is a product worth comparing to the C Class.


Quote:
We happily buy a Toyota van for 20+ lakhs and we buy a Fortuner for more than 30 lakhs. I guess I have made my point.
So you're supporting the rip-off club.

Quote:
What experience are you talking about? One thing that is common to all Toyota's no matter where they are sold in the world and that is absolute reliability and that matters more to buyers than a couple of fancy sofa's and a TV in the service lounge room. Ask an Innova buyer if he would switch brands because service lounge room is fancier for another brand. Speaking of service, we have more horror stories about Mercedes or any other german brand when it comes to service and reliability than Toyota. Infact I can't remember a thread where someone wasnt happy with Toyota's service or reliability.
So even after paying 65-70 lakhs, I should service my car next to an Etios?

And am I paying that much for reliability only? What about the sense of occasion? The performance? And common, reliability is overrated. I have a Merc GLA and it doesn't breakdown every 1000 kms.

Quote:
Yawn. A more qualified statement would be that a Mercedes C Class is less reliable in India than an Alto. Coming back to your assertion anyway, the Lexus is also a rear wheel drive, interiors quality is as good if not better and reliability is on a different planet. So how does it not hold a candle? Can you quantify your assertion?
CVT transmission = Yawn. And you'll probably be yawning the whole period of your ownership.

Let's consider this scenario: Wow, I bought a Lexus. It's very reliable. Today I feel like driving my car. Oh no, but my car has a CVT which is offered in a 8 lakh baleno as well. Might as well sit behind and relax in my car which never breaks down.

Quote:
Time will tell but reliability and peace of mind is something that even luxury car buyers look when purchasing a car in India. It may not be a success initially but I am pretty sure it will be once word of mouth spreads.
Will be good if Lexus is successful. More the competition, the better. But they should've introduced something more exciting. Something more on the lines of a LFA. Would've cemented their brand value that they are not a luxury Toyota. They have the ability to make one of the greatest cars in the world. Right now they sell the most B-O-R-I-N-G cars in the world.

If I pay a premium price, I expect something special.
If reliability was everything, every DSG car made by Volkswagen would've been a flop.

Oh and did I mention I see more ownership reviews of Polo GT TSI over an Alto on Team BHP?

Last edited by The Brutailer : 25th March 2017 at 18:14.
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Old 25th March 2017, 18:06   #34
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Default Re: Lexus ES 300h launched in India at Rs. 55 lakh

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
So even after paying 65-70 lakhs, I should service my car next to an Etios?
Not debating whether Lexus is worth its price or not.

But what exactly is the problem if the car is getting serviced next to an Etios/Liva?

These luxury cars are going to be driven to the service center by the chauffeurs mostly, If mean if the owner has so much time to go get the car serviced on his own he wouldn't probably be able to make so much money to own one.

My point is but what exactly is the problem in getting your

Lexus serviced next to an Etios?
S Cross next to an Alto?
Hexa next to an Nano?
Santa Fe next to an Eon?

How does it matter?

I ask this because I see this issue raised every now and then in the forum. Want to understand the ideology behind this.

Last edited by Karthik Chandra : 25th March 2017 at 18:13.
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Old 25th March 2017, 18:12   #35
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Default Re: Lexus ES 300h launched in India at Rs. 55 lakh

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Originally Posted by Karthik Chandra View Post
What exactly is the problem if the car is getting serviced next to an Etios/Liva?

My point is but what exactly is the problem in getting your

I ask this because I see this issue raised every now and then in the forum. Want to understand the ideology behind this
Quoting this line from my previous post :

Quote:
If I pay a premium price, I expect something special.
Premium price = Premium Service.
From a link a bhpian had mentioned, Lexus in ME offers 5 star service lounge for it's customers. Why this hypocrisy in India? Firstly we pay more than the rest of the world..least we can expect is a service which matches the price.

Quote:
S Cross next to an Alto?
Hexa next to an Nano?
Santa Fe next to an Eon?

How does it matter?
These cars are from the same brand hence it's okay. Lexus is a luxury brand. As a premium customer, I deserve premium experience as well.

Last edited by The Brutailer : 25th March 2017 at 18:17.
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Old 25th March 2017, 18:16   #36
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Default Re: Lexus ES 300h launched in India at Rs. 55 lakh

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Ask an Innova buyer if he would switch brands because service lounge room is fancier for another brand.
Innova is a very unique car that has no comparable product from other brands. Corolla and Camry offer a better analogy when discussing ES 300h and it's competition.

Popularity of Lexus abroad will be very difficult to replicate in our country. I can think of the following differences:

1. We are far from being saturated with the German cars to be fed up and move to less desirable (it is) Lexus.

2. Unlike immigrants abroad who wish to keep a low profile with Lexus, the affluent here are desperate for some action (even if the action comes from Lexus).

3. A typical Lexus owner abroad attaches a lot of importance to 100% uptime because without his daily driver, his life turns upside down. All luxury car owners here have a fleet cars and an army of drivers for backup.

Reliability is important for daily-driver cars, so they can't pull the Innova trick in this segment. One thing that will work in their favour is that most luxury cars that consider Lexus are chauffeur driven so they can get away with mediocre powertrains.

Of course Lexus is a serious contender and has very high brand value. It all depends on how aggressively they pursue the Indian market. My interest in Lexus is to the extent of them forcing the Germans to offer better warranty coverage, so I am hoping them to be very successful
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Old 25th March 2017, 18:28   #37
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Back in early 2000's I was driving Camry in KSA and my boss had a Lexus. For those who think Lexus as glorified Camry, Lexus is way above Camry in every aspect. Technology oozed out in Lexus and Premium feel was evident in detailing of comfort, performance and safety. Camrys were real Taxi stuff all over Middle East. It is not that they take a Camry, add bells and whistles and sell as Lexus. If they did, then that's a Glorified Camry. This is a different beauty and beast in one. IMO, Lexus will sure take off. If people are buying Camry and Accord Hybrids for 40+ lakhs ex-show room, they sure will buy a Lexus for 50-60 lakhs ex-show room.

Last edited by RajaTaurus : 25th March 2017 at 18:33.
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Old 25th March 2017, 18:36   #38
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Default Re: Lexus ES 300h launched in India at Rs. 55 lakh

An interesting trivia from Wikipedia:

Quote:
Until 2005 Lexus did not exist as a brand in its home market and all vehicles marketed internationally as Lexus from 1989-2005 were released in Japan under the Toyota marque and an equivalent model name.
Says a lot, doesn't it?
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Old 25th March 2017, 20:32   #39
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Default Re: Lexus ES 300h launched in India at Rs. 55 lakh

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Firstly this review you mentioned above has compared Lexus with a Corolla. Absolutely absurd.

Secondly, Lexus works abroad because it's VFM. In India though? Definitely not.

Compare it with a Mercedes C Class and that itself can beat this Lexus. E Class is in a different class of it's own even though both are priced similarly.

If Camry Hybrid was not offered in India, this could've been a better deal. But it is offered and yes this Lexus is a glorified Camry Hybrid.
Usually the ignorant ones abroad compare the ES to the Camry and the IS to the Corolla and that's why I mentioned it that way. Although there is nothing similar between the IS and Corolla, for that matter neither with the Camry.

Worldwide the comparison is between the IS, 3 series, A6 and C-class. Next segment is between GS, E-class and 5 series and ES.

Service center apart. If you just sit inside both the Toyota and Lexus you can feel the difference. The quality of materials used are totally different in both.

On what front does the C-class beat the ES and in what way is the E-class more superior to the ES apart from the driving dynamics ?

It's same as comparing Skoda interior to a Mercedes interior. Both are luxurious, but Mercedes is just so much more better with the classy materials used. You really need to sit inside to know the difference.
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Old 25th March 2017, 21:47   #40
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Default Re: Lexus ES 300h launched in India at Rs. 55 lakh

Decent pricing IMO. I don't think the Lexus is a glorified Camry. The level of Luxury the Lexus offers is much higher. Its like saying Skoda and VW is there in the Indian market, so an Audi is pointless.
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Old 25th March 2017, 22:04   #41
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Default Re: Lexus ES 300h launched in India at Rs. 55 lakh

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
Exactly my point. They have priced the car equal to E Class but is a product worth comparing to the C Class.
What's wrong in that ? World wide the E-class and ES series are competitors along with the GS. Here we also get a Hybrid but since our govt doesn't give good incentives it's price higher.


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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
So you're supporting the rip-off club.
I don't think it's called rip-off if market is willing to accept these prices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
So even after paying 65-70 lakhs, I should service my car next to an Etios?
I 100% agree to this point. This should never be the case with Lexus and I'm sure when they get the numbers this will change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
And am I paying that much for reliability only? What about the sense of occasion? The performance? And common, reliability is overrated. I have a Merc GLA and it doesn't breakdown every 1000 kms.

CVT transmission = Yawn. And you'll probably be yawning the whole period of your ownership.
To be quiet honest the newer Lexus's are not really that bad to drive. Please check out some reviews online. But you must consider that not all owners in this category want a sports Sedans.


I just feel your views are very biased generally. You have to sit and drive to feel what a Lexus is rather than hear it from some haters. It's a really good car and for most owners it's all that they will ever need. Dynamically it may not be as accomplished as the Germans but I think they are better or similar in other aspects.
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Old 25th March 2017, 22:11   #42
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Default Re: Lexus ES 300h launched in India at Rs. 55 lakh

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I just feel your views are very biased generally. You have to sit and drive to feel what a Lexus is rather than hear it from some haters. It's a really good car and for most owners it's all that they will ever need. Dynamically it may not be as accomplished as the Germans but I think they are better or similar in other aspects.
Respectfully disagree. A CVT transmission and not so premium service is not acceptable at that price range.

And do look at the new LWB E-Class and you'll understand why I'm biased.

Have a look at the other launch thread as well. See how Toyota is clearly overcharging us : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post4169923 (Lexus RX 450h launched in India at Rs. 1.07 crore)

And at that price why should I compromise on dynamics? If I want comfort, I'll take the E-Class thank you. If I want sportiness, I'll take the 5 series. Can you tell me why should I get this Lexus?

What makes it stand out?

Last edited by The Brutailer : 25th March 2017 at 22:25.
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Old 25th March 2017, 22:35   #43
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Default Re: Lexus ES 300h launched in India at Rs. 55 lakh

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
Not at all. A CVT transmission and not so premium service is not acceptable at that price range.
While Premium service is questionable, CVT on a Hybrid is not a bad combination. Hybrids are meant to be greener & also be more efficient then Petrol & Diesel. Also, they are driven in relaxed manner although you have performance oriented cars too. CVT also maximizes Efficiency & Smoothness. IMO,

Hybrid + CVT = Heaven

If it was a Petrol/Diesel Sedan like E/XF/5, I would have preferred DSG/8 Speed ZF Gearbox.

Remember the old Audi A4 ? For a car costing 40 lakhs, it had a CVT gearbox. It's cheaper & more VFM siblings (Octavia & Jetta) had Reliable DSG Gearbox (6 Speed). So, no complaints from my side regarding Lexus equipping ES300h with CVT.

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
And at that price why should I compromise on dynamics? If I want comfort, I'll take the E-Class thank you. If I want sportiness, I'll take the 5 series. Can you tell me why should I get this Lexus
If E Class was all about Comfort like it has been since long time, and 5 Series being as Driver Centric as a Roadster, we can appreciate Lexus for being as reliable as any other Japanese Car Brands including its owner "Toyota". This alone makes the Lexus brand worthy for a consumer & this is lone reason why Lexus has gained popularity over the years despite not commanding the Brand Value of Mercedes/Audi/BMW & likes.

Overall, as someone who prefers to be driven around & also wants Extra Peace of Mind, I think the Lexus is hard to beat.
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Old 25th March 2017, 22:43   #44
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Default Re: Lexus ES 300h launched in India at Rs. 55 lakh

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
Respectfully disagree. A CVT transmission and not so premium service is not acceptable at that price range.

And do look at the new LWB E-Class and you'll understand why I'm biased.

Have a look at the other launch thread as well. See how Toyota is clearly overcharging us : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post4169923 (Lexus RX 450h launched in India at Rs. 1.07 crore)

And at that price why should I compromise on dynamics? If I want comfort, I'll take the E-Class thank you. If I want sportiness, I'll take the 5 series. Can you tell me why should I get this Lexus?

What makes it stand out?
You seem to have fixed your mind on the Merc or Bimmer. So nothing Lexus does can convince you to get their car's.

A Lexus is truly more unique than Merc and Bimmers. If they were useless car's they'd not be leading the sales charts in developed countries for many years together.

Once a friend got in my car and we went for a drive, all he said was "Wow, A lexus really is a Lexus !.
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Old 25th March 2017, 22:46   #45
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Default Re: Lexus ES 300h launched in India at Rs. 55 lakh

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If E Class was all about Comfort like it has been since long time, and 5 Series being as Driver Centric as a Roadster, we can appreciate Lexus for being as reliable as any other Japanese Car Brands including its owner "Toyota". This alone makes the Lexus brand worthy for a consumer & this is lone reason why Lexus has gained popularity over the years despite not commanding the Brand Value of Mercedes/Audi/BMW & likes.

Overall, as someone who prefers to be driven around & also wants Extra Peace of Mind, I think the Lexus is hard to beat.
Perfect answer to my doubts. Thanks.
Also like I said it can be a viable product for people who want to stay low key.

Lexus can be a success if :
- Localisation happens (leading to lower cost)
- Premium A.S.S.
- Better gearbox

Will disagree with your views on the gearbox though. CVT, though smooth is just not as technologically advanced as other gearboxes.

Millionaires sometimes also like to get behind the wheels once in a while. And if it had a DCT, on an electric motor having crazy amounts of torque at 0 rpm, it would've been a hoot to drive.

Anyway, enough discussions on the pricing. Let's talk more about how the car performs on road in Indian conditions. Let's wait for the test drives.

Edit :
Quote:
You seem to have fixed your mind on the Merc or Bimmer. So nothing Lexus does can convince you to get their car's.

A Lexus is truly more unique than Merc and Bimmers. If they were useless car's they'd not be leading the sales charts in developed countries for many years together.
Already mentioned by androdev why it works in USA. Can you not fixate on it again? Our market is not similar to US.

Quote:
Once a friend got in my car and we went for a drive, all he said was "Wow, A lexus really is a Lexus !
Not a convincing justification for my question. This statement can be said for any car. Doesn't mean it's true. To be honest, you're the one who's biased towards Lexus. Apart from reliability, give me one good reason why it's better than the LWB E-Class?

Anyways, I rest my case. Whatever floats your boat.

Last edited by The Brutailer : 25th March 2017 at 23:07.
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