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Old 6th April 2017, 10:13   #1
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Default Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

Look what I found - www.tofler.in. They call themselves India's largest business research platform.

BHPian JPCOOLGUY has been attempting to calculate revenues of all manufacturers, but in a roundabout way.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...its-maker.html (Revenue calculation of cars sold in India - How many $$$ each model brings to its maker)

The revenue/ profit figures of Maruti, Mahindra & Tata Motors are already known - because they are listed in stock exchanges. But these are the FY16 revenues & Profits of other unlisted car manufacturers, based on company filings -

Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)-revenueprofits.jpg

Note:

1) Networth does not have much meaning for unlisted multi-national companies - because as soon as it falls, the parent will make an equity infusion.

2) VW Group numbers include VW, Skoda & Audi revenues. I couldn't find Skoda & Audi numbers (hence the statement)

3) Renault Group numbers include Renault, Datsun & Nissan revenues. These are FY15 numbers though. In a recent interview, Ghosn has confirmed that Renault Group is making profits in India - powered by sales of Kwid.

4) Fiat India is merrily making profits on engine sales.

5) Volvo India sales seems to be unusually high. It probably includes sales of Volvo buses and trucks (not sure).

6) Why is Mercedes India sales high when compared to BMW India sales? Probably has something to do with local engine manufacturing, truck/bus sales and exports (again, not sure).

Last edited by smartcat : 6th April 2017 at 10:37.
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Old 6th April 2017, 12:00   #2
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Default re: Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Look what I found - www.tofler.in. They call themselves India's largest business research platform.
Great find smartcat . I have always wondered how much the auto companies make and this gives a fairly clear picture.

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
3) Renault Group numbers include Renault, Datsun & Nissan revenues. These are FY15 numbers though. In a recent interview, Ghosn has confirmed that Renault Group is making profits in India - powered by sales of Kwid.
Yeah they had started making profits. I had posted the same earlier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik Chandra View Post
Carlos Ghosn shares the group's - Renault, Nissan & Mitsubishi, plans with Hormazd Sorabjee in the Geneva Motor Show.

Interesting bits

"If you make it big in India, you are gonna make it in many other emerging markets"

"We have started to make money in India now"
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
4) Fiat India is merrily making profits on engine sales.
Not for too long, I'm worried. Because

# TATA has already designed its own diesel engines (one doing duty in Tiago/Tigor, the other one to power the upcoming Nexon)

# MSIL is planning its own diesel motors

# GM is exiting India

These 3 have been the major source of engine revenue, but now the future looks bleak.

Last edited by Karthik Chandra : 6th April 2017 at 12:14.
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Old 6th April 2017, 12:26   #3
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Default re: Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

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5) Volvo India sales seems to be unusually high. It probably includes sales of Volvo buses and trucks (not sure).
These are actually the figures for Volvo's trucks and buses (Volvo India Private Limited). The figures for their cars (Volvo Auto India Pvt. Ltd) again from Tofler are as follows:

Revenue: 468 Cr
PAT: 24 Cr
Net Worth: 36.4 Cr
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Old 6th April 2017, 13:09   #4
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Default re: Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

Superb thread as always, Smartcat! Thanks for sharing.

Based on the data you provided, I prepared a sheet calculating the profit %:
Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)-capture.png

• Guess who has the fattest profit margin? Fiat: an engine supplier that incidentally also makes cars. The 1.3L MJD is now 10 years old, so that surely helps keeping the margins fat.

• No surprise that Mercedes has a lovely margin - luxury cars means mouth-watering profits. Equally, it's a shame that BMW is losing money after spending a decade in India!

• Mass market cars = thinner margins. That shows in Hyundai's numbers. Still, the sheer volumes make up for it. Hyundai is making more money than anyone on the list.

• After selling an unbelievable number of Rs. 20 lakh Innovas & Rs. 35 lakh Fortuners, I'm disappointed with Toyota's margin of merely 3.6% .

• If GM can't figure out how to make money in India after 20 years of trying, they never will. R.I.P. (as per recent rumours). Bring Ford's numbers into the same picture and it's clear that the Americans need to learn a thing or two about fiscal discipline. Let's not forget that internationally too, Ford + GM + Chrysler have either filed for bankruptcy in 2008 (or seen it upclose).

• VW is laughing all the way to the bank, old models, shoddy reliability & after-sales and small volumes notwithstanding. It's making more money than Honda & Toyota, with a fraction of the volumes. Would be fun to see Audi's contribution here, although conversely, loss-making Skoda will be a pain in the neck on their balance sheet.

• Renault - as you said - is making profits on the Kwid. But all the other dozen flopped products & brands have got to affect the net margins. Time to go for a haircut, you guys!

• Even after all that ridiculous cost-cutting & insane platform-sharing, Honda has the lowest profit % . Using the same cheap dashboard didn't do them too good.

Last edited by GTO : 6th April 2017 at 13:16.
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Old 6th April 2017, 13:51   #5
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Default Re: Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

% of profit may not be a conclusive metric as it is heavily influenced by the capex investment that companies like Toyota and BMW have made. It will also be influenced by where the parent company wants to book profit.

An excellent thread.
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Old 6th April 2017, 13:57   #6
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Default Re: Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

MORE ANALYSIS:

1) Look at Volvo cars financials (excluding CVs) posted by BHPian Immix . Heads up Lexus/Acura/Cadillac - want to make money in India? Just import and sell. Keep overheads low.

2) Maruti/M&M/Tata Motors numbers, including CVs -

Maruti Suzuki

FY16 Revenues: Rs. 57,746 crores
FY16 Net profits: Rs. 4,571 crores
Net Profit Margins: 7.8%

Mahindra & Mahindra (includes tractor & CV business)

FY16 Revenues: Rs. 40,800 crores
FY16 Profits: Rs. 3,167 crores
Net profit margins: 7.6%

Tata Motors (excludes JLR international business but includes CV business)

FY16 Revenues: Rs. 42,369 crores
FY16 Profits: Rs. 234 crores
Net Profit Margins: 0.54%

3) Low to negative net profit margins of most manufacturers might be due to high depreciation costs. Building one factory costs Rs. 5,000 crores (including equipment) and this is depreciated over time. Eg: Maruti/Tata/Mahindra has depreciation costs of Rs. 2000 to Rs. 2500 crores per year.

On a cash flow basis (EBIDTA), many companies might be making decent profits.

4) Hyundai India has revenues of Rs. 32,000 crores with just 16% market share. Maruti is clocking just Rs. 57,000 crores revenues with 48% market share. No point looking at M&M/Tata Motors because we don't have their passenger car revenues.

Last edited by smartcat : 6th April 2017 at 14:04.
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Old 6th April 2017, 14:02   #7
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Default Re: Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

Thought of sharing the similar data for our home grown manufacturers too:

Name:  co..PNG
Views: 20703
Size:  8.2 KB
Figures in Crores.
Source: https://www.tofler.in/

And just wanted to mention this that in the opening post except for Hyundai, GM and Toyota, all the figures of other companies pertains to FY15 and not FY16.

Last edited by Sherlocked : 6th April 2017 at 14:23.
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Old 6th April 2017, 14:06   #8
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Default Re: Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik Chandra View Post
Not for too long, I'm worried. Because

# TATA has already designed its own diesel engines (one doing duty in Tiago/Tigor, the other one to power the upcoming Nexon)

# MSIL is planning its own diesel motors

# GM is exiting India

These 3 have been the major source of engine revenue, but now the future looks bleak.
Future of engine sales look bleak, but not immediately. Because Maruti diesel engines are still some time away.

We're also forgetting that some licence revenue goes to FIAT parent company for the 1.3 engines manufactured by MS in India, in addition to the ones they buy from FIAT India.

However -

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
• Guess who has the fattest profit margin? Fiat: an engine supplier that incidentally also makes cars. The 1.3L MJD is now 10 years old, so that surely helps keeping the margins fat.
Generally we tend to associate FIAT as the poor company that hangs on without giving up on the Indian market. But this clearly shows they're making good money from the Indian market.

Now once engine sales die, and they still don't have products in the showroom to backup their profit margins, they've got none but themselves to blame and deserves to be shown the door.
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Old 6th April 2017, 14:17   #9
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Default Re: Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

Excellent thread. Thanks for posting.

In my view a lot the negative profits that we see here could be because of the car companies are investing the money they earned back into their operations (plus additional sums from their parent group). For example the loss that we see for Ford could be because of their continued investments in their Sanand plant. Does that make sense?

Last edited by karan85 : 6th April 2017 at 14:28. Reason: typo
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Old 6th April 2017, 14:31   #10
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Default Re: Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

Thank you for the post.
One thing is clear, the American brands (Ford and GM) are having a tough time.
Is it due to the inferior products, lack of brand name image, or a poor understanding of the Indian market?. They surely have had enough time in India to understand the needs of the market and to do a course correction as needed.
I wonder why then?.
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Old 6th April 2017, 14:46   #11
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Default Re: Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

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Originally Posted by karan85 View Post
In my view a lot the negative profits that we see here could be because of the car companies are investing the money they earned back into their operations (plus additional sums from their parent group). For example the loss that we see for Ford could be because of their continued investments in their Sanand plant. Does that make sense?
It doesn't exactly work that way, but you are 'sort of' right. If Ford earned Rs. 100 cr and they invested Rs. 50 cr on a plant machinery, that Rs. 50 cr is not considered "expenses". It is considered as "assets" which adds to networth. But these assets lose value every year (called depreciation costs).

Also, companies that are in 'investment mode' like Honda/Toyota needs lots of money. This money is raised in 3 ways -

1) Profits generated by the company
2) Cash provided by the parent (called equity infusion)
3) Bank Loans.

(1) and (2) does not affect net profits. But (3) does because of interest costs. The website from which I got this data gives you the debt: equity ratio too.

Honda: 2.64
Toyota: 2.65
Ford: 1.95

But Hyundai/Maruti debt:equity ratio is just 0.3.

It's a bit difficult (and boring for many) to explain what the ratio means but suffice to say, lower the better. High debt to equity ratio means the company has lots of bank loans.

The interest paid on bank loans will reduce net profits.
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Old 6th April 2017, 14:53   #12
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Default Re: Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Superb thread as always, Smartcat! Thanks for sharing.

Based on the data you provided, I prepared a sheet calculating the profit %:
Attachment 1627027

• After selling an unbelievable number of Rs. 20 lakh Innovas & Rs. 35 lakh Fortuners, I'm disappointed with Toyota's margin of merely 3.6% .
I guess this data does not give the full picture. The profit margin probably represents what is left with Indian subsidiary or what is allowed to be left to Indian Subsidiary. I think a large part of profit is repatriated to Japan in lieu of technology, engine etc. So I think Toyota India makes money - GOOD money - but a large part of it might be sent to parent organization and only 3.6% left to Indian subsidiary.
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Old 6th April 2017, 14:58   #13
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Default Re: Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

Excellent thread!

smartcat, could you please add Return on Investment column as well. (ROI = Net Profit/Net Worth).

Toyota leads the lot with an ROI of ~28%.
No need for a second guess on who should be worried, GM india has an ROI of -84%.
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Old 6th April 2017, 15:54   #14
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Default Re: Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

Interesting to see how a company's revenue and profitability varies by -
1. Price range for cars - As pointed out in earlier post, Hyundai being a mass manufacturer, have high revenues but relatively modest margins. they also have a wider range of cars - from Eon to Santa Fe (3.5L - 32L), which should impact their costs (less part sharing, higher R&D to remain competitive etc.). Maruti on the other hand, manages a close lineup of products in terms of price (3L - 13L), hence allowing higher sharing of parts and hence build further on economies of scale.

2. Recent investments - For example, company launching several new products is expected to have lower margins (declined sale of outgoing model, investment to setup new parts / assembly line etc.). Is that why Toyota ended up with lower margins?
Do note that part of the reason why VW would be more profitable is they dont have to spend a buck on R&D, all their products are established breadwinners in other markets and thankfully, their offerings in India isnt too different (save a few features skipped).

Notably, Japs have put up a not-so-satisfactory performance, despite the premium pricing both Honda and Toyota have adopted.
Would be interesting to overlap the sale volumes across segments by these companies, and then analyse their margins.

Having said that, I am pretty certain the revenue vs margin correlation has several other factors in play (business strategy, revenue from engines / accessories / spares, number of recalls in a year, export / import volume etc.).
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Old 6th April 2017, 16:55   #15
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Default Re: Actual Revenues & Profits of car manufacturers (via company filings)

Adding figures for Skoda from Tofler. Only figures from Audi are missing now. Since Audi India is a division of VW Group Sales India Pvt Ltd, I guess they get away by not declaring the individual division's figures.

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