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Old 25th April 2017, 11:52   #1
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Default Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

Came across this news about Central Govt coming up with a policy to push e-vehicles usage in India, starting with public transport vehicles initially and gradually creating an environment where private vehicles can also ply without much difficulty.

Some important points from article
  • Two-wheelers, three-wheelers and non-air-conditioned city buses made by automobile companies in India will be sold without batteries as part of the plan, thus slashing prices by as much as 70%.
  • The batteries will be leased at a specified cost and can be swiftly swapped with recharged ones at stations
  • It will take just two-and-half minutes to replace auto batteries and can be done in 10 minutes when city buses rest after about a 30-km trip. The model, however, will not work for AC cars and AC buses
  • Formal policy expected in 6 months time frame
  • For taxis, the government is considering fast-charging electric stations. Specifications and guidelines for each type of electric vehicle, lease plans, battery swaps and charging stations are being worked out.
  • The government is considering involving aggregators to club demand and vehicle leases
  • Petrol and diesel vehicles have more than 2,000 moving parts as opposed to about 20 in electric vehicles, making them 90% energy efficient against 20% for the first kind, according to the official cited above.(I believe that is with respect to engine. Request experts in Tbhp to throw more light on this point)

Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/t...w/58354004.cms
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Old 25th April 2017, 12:11   #2
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Default re: Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

Interesting story/initiative.

Iím not so sure about the swapping of batteries though. In theory itís at least fast. But how long will leads and clamps and such last in India? No offence, but not much happens in India within 2.5 minutes. you will need people at the ready, tools, spare batteries, somebody that keeps the spare on a charge etc.


Wonder why they donít aim for fast charging? That does take a bit longer of course. Here in the Netherlands a Tesla gets a 75% charge in less then 20 minute. You donít need anybody, the driver just plugs a cable into a socket. You do need the infrastructure for such charges, but they just hook up to the grid. Itís just a little box with a socket.

The statement about energy efficiency in relation to number of parts is a bit of a laugh. Itís not the number of parts perse that determines the efficiency of course.

Jet turbines have even fewer moving parts, but are not necessarily more efficient.

The engine in your car be it diesel or petrol has a certain efficiency. The electric grid that charges your battery is powered by electrical power plants on a variety of fuels. They run at much better efficiency than your carís engine. However, to make a proper comparison you do need to take into account all the various losses in the distribution grid and the losses/inefficiency of the battery and such as well.

The gap narrows considerably, depending how you calculate it. The big advantage of E-propulsion is no emissions in town. You will still have all the emissions of your (conventional) power plants, but no emissions of the vehicle itself.

Whether e-bike/cars are more eco friendly then say petrol ones is still a bit of a debate as well. Again, it depends on how you look at it. But when you start including the production of the raw materials (especially those required for batteries) again the gap between e and conventional narrows.

Still, you have to start somewhere and I think its a worthwhile initiative given the number of smoke belching busses in any typical Indian town!

Jeroen
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Old 25th April 2017, 12:58   #3
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Default re: Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

Also it will be better if govt urges and supports manufacturers like nissan to bring in their ev like Leaf to Bharat and helps in setting up of charging support network across country by providing incentives and tax benefits to both buyer and makers.
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Old 25th April 2017, 13:17   #4
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Default re: Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
The electric grid that charges your battery is powered by electrical power plants on a variety of fuels.

Whether e-bike/cars are more eco friendly then say petrol ones is still a bit of a debate as well. Again, it depends on how you look at it. But when you start including the production of the raw materials (especially those required for batteries) again the gap between e and conventional narrows.
This is the more pertinent question that always makes me believe that just having more electric vehicles wouldn't be enough unless the source of such energy itself is clean enough. While I acknowledge that no source can be completely free from causing damage to environment one way or other having more energy from renewables might be the most effective way, especially in a country like India where we have sun light for a major part of the year. I also think going micro, i.e. having solar panels on roof tops etc would be a better way than having big solar plants.


Quote:
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Still, you have to start somewhere and I think its a worthwhile initiative given the number of smoke belching busses in any typical Indian town!
Yes, if there at least a step in that direction then we may find solutions to the problems along the way. Being from non engineering background I also didn't quite understand why AC buses and cars cannot be used in the way mentioned in the article.

Last edited by Rehaan : 25th April 2017 at 15:03. Reason: Fixing quote
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Old 26th April 2017, 18:51   #5
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Default Re: Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

The biggest worry is traffic as one tends to waste so much fuel in traffic, due to their inability (not that they cannot) to shut down engines (excessive pollution, heat) in normal cars, how is one expected to shut down engine in an EV?

However, they'll have to as they wont be able to reach their destination, as the charge will die down. I would love to buy the E2O plus as I am all for the environment. However, I travel 70 kms (35X2) daily and each way, it takes me a minimum of two hours. If an EV runs for 90 kms with normal traffic, with bumper to bumper, it'll be less for sure.
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Old 26th April 2017, 19:48   #6
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Default Re: Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Iím not so sure about the swapping of batteries though. In theory itís at least fast. But how long will leads and clamps and such last in India? No offence, but not much happens in India within 2.5 minutes. you will need people at the ready, tools, spare batteries, somebody that keeps the spare on a charge etc.
How about doing exactly that: having a team and platforms who just do this one thing all day, replace depleted batteries with charged ones, exactly like a pit stop for buses at their route end, which usually, is a terminus with ample space.

The second team nearby can have an assembled grid which just charges batteries. I think that's a pretty workable solution. Better yet, outsource this service to private players, solar solution providers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
The statement about energy efficiency in relation to number of parts is a bit of a laugh. Itís not the number of parts perse that determines the efficiency of course.

Jet turbines have even fewer moving parts, but are not necessarily more efficient.
And yet each part that consumes power from the source does lose some to inefficiency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
The engine in your car be it diesel or petrol has a certain efficiency. The electric grid that charges your battery is powered by electrical power plants on a variety of fuels. They run at much better efficiency than your carís engine. However, to make a proper comparison you do need to take into account all the various losses in the distribution grid and the losses/inefficiency of the battery and such as well.
Erm.. I don't see you including the amount of fuel required to mine and distill petrol or diesel, and to make it reach our vehicles in your calculations. It's a bit much.

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Originally Posted by amtak View Post
The biggest worry is traffic as one tends to waste so much fuel in traffic, due to their inability (not that they cannot) to shut down engines (excessive pollution, heat) in normal cars, how is one expected to shut down engine in an EV?
An EV doesn't need to be shut down. It goes to sleep unless you're drawing power using an AC or stereo or such. It wakes up with the accelerator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amtak View Post
I travel 70 kms (35X2) daily and each way, it takes me a minimum of two hours. If an EV runs for 90 kms with normal traffic, with bumper to bumper, it'll be less for sure.
Did you try for a test drive of your normal route?
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Old 26th April 2017, 19:53   #7
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Default Re: Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by amtak View Post
The biggest worry is traffic as one tends to waste so much fuel in traffic, due to their inability (not that they cannot) to shut down engines (excessive pollution, heat) in normal cars, how is one expected to shut down engine in an EV?

However, they'll have to as they wont be able to reach their destination, as the charge will die down. I would love to buy the E2O plus as I am all for the environment. However, I travel 70 kms (35X2) daily and each way, it takes me a minimum of two hours. If an EV runs for 90 kms with normal traffic, with bumper to bumper, it'll be less for sure.
Actually, you don't need to shut down the engine in an EV. One of the biggest advantages of an EV is that, while stationary, the only drain on the battery will come from the AC, lights, music system, etc. That's what makes them excellent for city traffic.

As for your commute. If it's 70km, then an E20 might not be practical for you. The official range is stated as 120km, so it should give 90km in real world conditions. However, that still leaves you very little safety margin in case you need to take the car anywhere else.

The base model Tesla gives a range of 208 miles (335 km), but we're a while away from getting anything like that in India. However, if we get EVs with even 200km of range, that would make them practical enough for city driving.
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Old 26th April 2017, 21:09   #8
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Default Re: Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by ach1lles View Post
How about doing exactly that: having a team and platforms who just do this one thing all day, replace depleted batteries with charged ones, exactly like a pit stop for buses at their route end, which usually, is a terminus with ample space.

The second team nearby can have an assembled grid which just charges batteries. I think that's a pretty workable solution. Better yet, outsource this service to private players, solar solution providers.
How about just providing a few sockets? Driver plugs in and drives away within 15-20 minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ach1lles View Post
And yet each part that consumes power from the source does lose some to inefficiency.
Yes, and only the cumulative value of all components is relevant really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ach1lles View Post
Erm.. I don't see you including the amount of fuel required to mine and distill petrol or diesel, and to make it reach our vehicles in your calculations. It's a bit much.
I did not include it because itís a different comparison all together. I was talking about the efficiency of an electric vehicle compared to a petrol/diesel vehicle. Itís just to get a rough idea on how complicated these comparison can be,

You have to stop somewhere. Why not include the fuel required to build the mine, the fuel of the car of the project manager of the construction mine who built the refinery?


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Old 28th April 2017, 08:17   #9
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Default Re: Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Wonder why they donít aim for fast charging? That does take a bit longer of course. Here in the Netherlands a Tesla gets a 75% charge in less then 20 minute. You donít need anybody, the driver just plugs a cable into a socket. You do need the infrastructure for such charges, but they just hook up to the grid. Itís just a little box with a socket.
I have suggested a similar plan to the PMO, using their suggestion portal, (it actually works, and one does receive responses).
Basically, all i suggested was that, we could install 2-3 sockets in each petrol pump, which could charge the cars. All petrol pumps, have diesel generators as backup, so charging during load shedding should not be a major issue. A normal car, requires 16AMP socket (like the ones we use in our ACs), so it is easy for mass implementation.
The users of the facility, could be charged on an hourly basis, after working out the economies.

What do the other members think about this suggestion?
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Old 28th April 2017, 11:32   #10
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Default Re: Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharktale View Post
I have suggested a similar plan to the PMO, using their suggestion portal, (it actually works, and one does receive responses).
Basically, all i suggested was that, we could install 2-3 sockets in each petrol pump, which could charge the cars. All petrol pumps, have diesel generators as backup, so charging during load shedding should not be a major issue. A normal car, requires 16AMP socket (like the ones we use in our ACs), so it is easy for mass implementation.
The users of the facility, could be charged on an hourly basis, after working out the economies.

What do the other members think about this suggestion?
It is a good plan but using diesel gensets for charging kind of defeats the entire purpose. They can use solar or wind power instead where feasible.
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Old 28th April 2017, 12:26   #11
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Default Re: Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

Looking at the way transport is in Bangalore, government could easily setup a network of techparks and swapping stations.
Each techpark could contribute space for a swapping station, where employees could swap the batteries if they run out of charge. The cars anyway rest for a long time in the parking lots. The same could work out for e-scooters.
Charging time, however reduced may not work out very well in our choked cities where everybody is pressed for time. As of now, you get into a petrol pump, wait your turn, fill your fuel and go your way.
If Govt can standardize and monitor battery quality, obviously the same could work for battery swapping stations.
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Old 28th April 2017, 14:20   #12
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Default Re: Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

Looks like India is following Germany's footsteps. Very recently there were reports of Tata testing electric buses in Shimla. I read a report when the Germans are planning to completely wipe out fossil fuel vehicles by 2030. But knowing the Germans they may very well implement it at a faster pace. It will be very interesting to see how this sector grows. The article also mentioned that the Dutch and the Norwegians are planning to follow suit. If this is a global initiative I feel there will be a lot of potential getting exploited for a greener planet.
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Old 28th April 2017, 14:21   #13
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Default Re: Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

Gogoro Scooters in new in market (overseas) and they follow replaceable battery concept. https://www.gogoro.com/smartscooter/faster/
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Old 28th April 2017, 15:12   #14
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Default Re: Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

Why isn't anyone talking about promoting this? Another link.
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Old 28th April 2017, 16:29   #15
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Default Re: Government plans major policy push to promote e-vehicles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool_leo_guy View Post
It is a good plan but using diesel gensets for charging kind of defeats the entire purpose. They can use solar or wind power instead where feasible.
I think diesel gensets would be the best alternative. This is because, diesel would readily be available in the pump at all times. Moreover, for solar and wind implementation, a detailed analysis of each pump would have to be made to choose the preference, which would be cumbersome.
Also, the gensets are a mere backup option. The main power would be drawn from the grid, whose availability is increasing day by day.
In my opinion, diesel gensets have better economies of scale at the end of the day.
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