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Old 3rd May 2017, 13:51   #1
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Default Fiat to supply 2.2 Lakh diesel engines to Maruti & Tata

Fiat India Automobiles, an equally owned JV between FIAT and Tata motors signed fresh agreements with its Indian Parent and Maruti Suzuki to supply 2.5 lakh diesel engines over a period of 3 years.

Maruti Suzuki will continue to buy the 1.3 l diesel engine and has signed an agreement to buy 1.5 lakh of the same engine that powers most of its models. Maruti Suzuki's own 1.5 l engine, once developed, will power some of its products.

Tata's deal is to get 70000 of the 2.0 l diesel engine for its SUV program (Q501 &Q502) built on the Land Rover platform.


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Last edited by Aditya : 3rd May 2017 at 16:14.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 13:56   #2
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Default re: Fiat to supply 2.5 Lakhs diesel engine to Maruti Suzuki & Tata Motors

For a moment i thought its a 2.5 Litre engine, looking at the thread title. Wondering what MSIL would use that big an engine in. LoL.

But high time the MJD engine is revamped completely now. Its getting too old in the tooth now and competitors offer better refinement levels compared to the National engine.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 14:44   #3
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Default re: Fiat to supply 2.5 Lakh diesel engine to Maruti Suzuki & Tata Motors

If Tata can source the 2.0L engine for its SUV program, why can't Maruti ask Fiat to localize the 1.6L DDIS??

I can see a lot of MSIL products utilizing the same, like Ciaz, Ertiga, S Cross, Upcoming Vitara, etc
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Old 3rd May 2017, 17:21   #4
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Default re: Fiat to supply 2.2 Lakh diesel engines to Maruti & Tata

2.0L engine now sees application in JEEP Compass and Tata SUV program (Q501 &Q502).

IMHO, Fiat cars are getting only 1.3L Multijet-I series for their products, 1.6L doesn't seem to trickle into it's portfolio anytime soon.

1.3L Multijet-I series engine, is this Euro-6 compatible? No, I think. Its pretty clear from 3 years contract that 1.3L Multijet-II series engine would come only after BS-VI implementations. With current fiasco of Automotive Sector crying hoarse on stock of BS-III units, we are again going to see the same stuff during BS-VI and asking for extension or sops for selling BS-IV stock. This clearly shows that Maruti will not lead the pack by early adoption of BS-VI and setting example, rather wait for BS-VI to become compulsion and beat about bringing less polluting new engines in their facelifts.

Automotive manufacturers should really get a stick in 2020, for failing to comply even after conveying prior 3-4 years in advance.

Last edited by varunswnt : 3rd May 2017 at 17:24.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 17:29   #5
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Default re: Fiat to supply 2.2 Lakh diesel engines to Maruti & Tata

Various SUV manufacturers are now preferring engine capacity of 2 litres or below.
I wonder if that is due to recent "Tughlaqi" decisions by various government bodies and the honourable Courts.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 18:02   #6
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Default re: Fiat to supply 2.2 Lakh diesel engines to Maruti & Tata

Quote:
Originally Posted by varunswnt View Post
2.0L engine now sees application in JEEP Compass and Tata SUV program (Q501 &Q502).

IMHO, Fiat cars are getting only 1.3L Multijet-I series for their products, 1.6L doesn't seem to trickle into it's portfolio anytime soon.

1.3L Multijet-I series engine, is this Euro-6 compatible? No, I think. Its pretty clear from 3 years contract that 1.3L Multijet-II series engine would come only after BS-VI implementations. .
Fiat MJD is here to stay and I doubt if any of the competition is at par with their diesel technology as of now (at least in terms of emission efficiency). The MJD II which was introduced in 2009 has taken the multijet from present level of 5 injections per cycle to 8 per cycle making it extremely silent, efficient and reliable. Not only that, the MJD-II does not require "Add Blue" or Urea for NOx reduction upto 2 litre capacity. It is compliant with Euro VI norms through Low Pressure EGR that makes these small engines cost effective and reliable.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 18:11   #7
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Default re: Fiat to supply 2.2 Lakh diesel engines to Maruti & Tata

Quote:
Originally Posted by i74js View Post
Fiat MJD is here to stay and I doubt if any of the competition is at par with their diesel technology as of now (at least in terms of emission efficiency). The MJD II which was introduced in 2009 has taken the multijet from present level of 5 injections per cycle to 8 per cycle making it extremely silent, efficient and reliable. Not only that, the MJD-II does not require "Add Blue" or Urea for NOx reduction upto 2 litre capacity. It is compliant with Euro VI norms through Low Pressure EGR that makes these small engines cost effective and reliable.
That's exactly what I wanted to highlight. Euro-6 MJD-II which is available since 2009 is not being brought to India till 2020, they are waiting for BS-VI implementations to come into effect. Auto manufacturers have all the technology in place but they won't act proactively, infact they will cry during 2020 deadline for sops/extensions/leeway/lesser time/compensation and what not sort of stuff, this is what I hate most.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 20:29   #8
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Default Re: Fiat to supply 2.5 Lakhs diesel engine to Maruti Suzuki & Tata Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCEite View Post
But high time the MJD engine is revamped completely now. Its getting too old in the tooth now and competitors offer better refinement levels compared to the National engine.
But which are those diesels that provide better refinement than the MJDs ?

I have found the Hondas, Fords and Renault/Nissan, VW/Skoda Diesels to be more noisy than the MJD. Toyota, Hyundais are at par in Refinement terms.

Moreover, I find a lot of Fords, Tata, and Renault/Nissan diesel hatches spewing smoke, even the new ones. Yet to find a badly smoking MJD, considering the sheer numbers on road.

Of course I agree with you on the revamp, they are in no way match for the 1.5 diesels in terms of power, at least the 75MJD.

Wonder why FCA hasn't bothered to come up 1.5L derived from their existing 1.6L.


* On a lighter note, so my Punto wont be orphaned for the next 3 years at least!

Last edited by anand.shankar : 3rd May 2017 at 20:31.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 23:02   #9
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Default Re: Fiat to supply 2.5 Lakhs diesel engine to Maruti Suzuki & Tata Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by anand.shankar View Post
Hyundais are at par in Refinement terms.
Agree on all, but for the Hyundai range. Their diesel engines are way ahead of the Multijet range, when it comes to NVH and refinement.

Imagine a manufacturer having the sheer guts to leave out under bonnet cladding for a diesel variant, which still makes it the best refined engine in class. That's the confidence they have in their diesel engine noise levels.
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Old 4th May 2017, 09:35   #10
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Default Re: Fiat to supply 2.5 Lakhs diesel engine to Maruti Suzuki & Tata Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by anand.shankar View Post
VW/Skoda Diesels to be more noisy than the MJD.
VW/Skoda diesels take the gold medal for noise, I sometimes look back to see if a tractor is approaching from behind and if I've to give more room for it when I'm walking, I turn around and I see a VW 1.2 diesel passing me by, good lord the noise! The clatter is so pronounced in VW diesels that I can hear them from a mile off and for someone who hates diesel noise, this takes the cake.

Fiat diesels aren't so bad I agree, but they are more audible in a Swift if that makes any sense, has to do with the way a Punto and Swift are built I suppose and the difference in build quality between them is as obvious as day and night. Not experienced a Honda diesel but reports are that they are noisy and clattery.

Hyundai, its quite obvious that this is the most refined diesel engine in India yet (atleast from what I've experienced) and like Crazy Driver has mentioned, they have some confidence giving it without bonnet/hood cladding, speaks for their confidence that they don't have to work on noise control any further.
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Old 4th May 2017, 09:52   #11
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Default Re: Fiat to supply 2.5 Lakhs diesel engine to Maruti Suzuki & Tata Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Agree on all, but for the Hyundai range.
Imagine a manufacturer having the sheer guts to leave out under bonnet cladding for a diesel variant, which still makes it the best refined engine in class. That's the confidence they have in their diesel engine noise levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
Hyundai, its quite obvious that this is the most refined diesel engine in India yet (atleast from what I've experienced) and like Crazy Driver has mentioned, they have some confidence giving it without bonnet/hood cladding, speaks for their confidence that they don't have to work on noise control any further.
The cheap cladding that every diesel car has in the bonnet will not significantly reduce noise levels anyway. Proof? Other diesel cars have this black cladding and they still sound like tractors on the road. The job of the cladding seems to be 90% aesthetics (covering up ugly metal surfaces on underside of the bonnet) and 10% sound reduction

Two things -

1) When you open the bonnet of a modern Hyundai diesel and start the car, the engine makes quite a racket.
2) Pretty much all modern Hyundai cars have very low wind and tyre noise at highway speeds.

Conclusion: It is not the engine that is magically super-refined. Hyundai diesels are very quiet because of excellent noise insulation. It's obvious that Hyundai pays lot of attention to NVH inside the cabin

Last edited by smartcat : 4th May 2017 at 10:14.
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Old 4th May 2017, 10:23   #12
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Default Re: Fiat to supply 2.5 Lakhs diesel engine to Maruti Suzuki & Tata Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
that was funny but true though.

VW/Skoda too should buy engine from Hyundai or Fiat to be ensure they also have a clean green engine.
Uh oh What about the software tweak which supposedly fixes everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
The cheap cladding that every diesel car has in the bonnet is unlikely to significantly reduce noise levels anyway. Proof? Other diesel cars have this black cladding and they still sound like tractors on the road.

Conclusion: It is not the engine that is magically super-refined, but the excellent noise insulation of the cabin. It's obvious that Hyundai pays lot of attention to NVH inside the cabin
I cannot state for fact just how much the cladding under the hood works, but I know for sure it does. I was talking also of how the engine noise seems to be from outside the car, not inside.

Its harmonics basically, putting the cladding is the equivalent of putting a curtain in the home. The wave oscillation bounces off the metal underside of the bonnet and creates a somewhat magnified noise while putting a rubberised cladding would mean that the material shortens the wave oscillation by absorbing it and not allowing it to resonate. The difference externally, should be quite significant as the harsher noises will be eliminated.

Internally almost all cars are quiet or seem quiet, perhaps for 2 reasons - one the thick glass and noise isolation (which are as good if not better in a VW as they are in a Hyundai) and the more important reason that when a driver sits in a car magically every complaint that we make from the outside vantage point disappears, the car can sound like a truck and belch out thick black smoke and we'd not care one bit because we're "helming it".

However I try to look at things more objectively, there are indeed mechanics within the engine that can be optimized and constructed in a way that noise reduces. The VW 1.2 diesel that I spoke of in the previous post has the 3 cylinder setup and 3 cylinder setups across all brands are noisier and clattery compared to their 4 cylinder counterparts.

The modern diesels of Hyundai are indeed less noisy compared to the previous generation of CRDi engines, when Hyundai made the 1.1 3-cylinder engine for the market they had this to say :

Quote:
The engine also incorporates a 1 engine order balance shaft mounted under the crankshaft driven by helical gears to manage engine vibration. It is currently fitted to the Kia Picanto, Kia Rio, Hyundai i10 and i20 models.
Other factors such as turbo programming, type of air-intake, type of exhaust etc play a role in the overall harmonics of the car.

Not to go off topic - Fiats have been major innovators when it comes to diesel engines and they are a key reason for the sales success of Suzuki because their engines have the best balance of refinement, weight management and economy. I may have exaggerated the noise levels a wee bit and the difference in real world won't exceed 20% between the most noisy engine and the most refined engine (when compared on same number of cylinders basis).
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Old 4th May 2017, 10:24   #13
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Default re: Fiat to supply 2.2 Lakh diesel engines to Maruti & Tata

I think Maruti sticks on to the same 75bhp MJD since they know the "art" of reducing the weight of the car to even make it seem that 75 bhp is "powerful". Being a cost conscious, FE obsessed company, I doubt they ever have their preference set towards a more powerful engine (S-Cross 1.6 is an exception I believe).

Else, by now, we should have seen 90 bhp on the Swift (atleast on the Baleno being a premium hatch), 1.6 on the Ciaz / Ertiga etc.

Fiat probably will charge more for the MJD II and hence Maruti may not want it. Even Fiat will be happy that they don't have to make any extra investment for the new line (if at all). Fiat's life line in India just got extended by another 3 years.

Edit:: The news is in line with @RavenAvi's comment on TATAs decision to stick to their own diesel engines in the sub 10-15L segment.

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 4th May 2017 at 10:28.
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Old 4th May 2017, 10:40   #14
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Default re: Fiat to supply 2.2 Lakh diesel engines to Maruti & Tata

Quote:
Originally Posted by i74js View Post
The MJD II which was introduced in 2009 has taken the multijet from present level of 5 injections per cycle to 8 per cycle making it extremely silent, efficient and reliable. Not only that, the MJD-II does not require "Add Blue" or Urea for NOx reduction upto 2 litre capacity. It is compliant with Euro VI norms through Low Pressure EGR that makes these small engines cost effective and reliable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post

Fiat probably will charge more for the MJD II and hence Maruti may not want it. Even Fiat will be happy that they don't have to make any extra investment for the new line (if at all). Fiat's life line in India just got extended by another 3 years.
Fiat 1.3 MJD II was introduced in 2009 for Europe and extra 3 injections are for DPF regeneration. I think what's available in India is MJD I. Fiat is interested only in selling engines and making good profit too in India . I don't think our National engine would be phased out soon. Suzuki has failed badly in their first diesel engine attempt (blame the 2 cylinder and NVH).
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Old 4th May 2017, 10:48   #15
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Default re: Fiat to supply 2.2 Lakh diesel engines to Maruti & Tata

Is this because Maruti is coming up with its own diesel engine so the existing capacity of Maruti will be used for the new in-house motor ?

Given the fact that diesels are losing a bit of market share to petrol powered vehicles, this new pact could mean that Maruti is planning to create breathing space to make their own diesel motor. Or the demand for Maruti diesel products is likely to shoot up.

Hope that this has some positive impact in reducing the waiting period if diesel engines were the reason for 20+ week waiting time for Vitara Brezza, Baleno.

As far as noise is concerned, I think that first generation Toyota Innova takes the limelight for being noisy. Next up, Honda diesel (in Honda City when the car was launched) followed by VW. Maruti diesels are still noisy, but I felt it less in Ertiga and Ciaz. However, that 1248cc motor is now showing its age, but Maruti has somehow managed to tune it pretty well in last few years.
Hyundai are the champs when it boils down to diesel engine NVH. No wonder, even I was sold onto the refinement back in 2014 when I purchased Grand i10 diesel.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 4th May 2017 at 10:50.
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