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Old 30th May 2017, 17:18   #1
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Default Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

Tata Motors is said to be working on an all-electric version of the Tiago hatchback. While the automaker hasn't made any official indication about the said step, reports suggest that the Tiago electric is likely to be the first all-electric car to feature in the company's portfolio.

Tata has been focusing on electric mobility for quite some time. The company's Europe-based technical and R&D centre has been working on all-electric powertrains for the past few years. The automaker had also showcased an electric version of the Bolt hatchback in the UK, though it was a one-off prototype and never made it to production.

However, the company is now reportedly set to give the Tiago hatchback an electric powertrain. The hatchback's low-cost platform is expected to help in offsetting the higher price of electric powertrain, which in turn is expected to keep its price competitive. The Tiago is currently the best-selling car from Tata Motors. Therefore, an electric variant of the Tiago is likely to garner more interest from customers as compared to an electric Bolt or Nano.

Source: Autocar India

Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3-tiago.jpg
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Old 30th May 2017, 18:48   #2
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Default re: Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

Tata has already made an electric Indica, electric Vista, electric Bolt, electric Nano and now electric Tiago. I am pretty sure they will make electric Hexa as well and then strive with all might to prevent these cars from never seeing the light of day!

I honestly feel Tata has only academic interest in electric vehicles and they are waiting for some manufacturer to establish firm hold in EV space. Then Tata will be able to do what they do best, play catch up with the leaders.

Rant apart, I do not think it is wise to play around with existing platforms and then try to convert them into EV. This may be acceptable for testing and development but EVs deserve dedicated design and platform built with EV perspective. Such stop gap arrangements are not going to take manufacturers anywhere.
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Old 30th May 2017, 19:18   #3
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Default re: Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

The moment a manufacturer decides to convert a regular model designed for running on combustion engine to an electric drive train, it has failure return all over it. There is considerable weight disadvantage and then there is this "not so good" aerodynamics (really matters when you want good range on your EV). Then they have the problem of limited space available for battery. They end up putting a small battery in the boot and the range will be limited to an extend that people will find it useless.

If a manufacturer is serious about EVs, they should design it from scratch like how Tesla did. If you look at it, EVs that have been at least moderately successful have all been designed keeping in mind that they are going to be EVs. (Leaf, Teslas, Volt, Bolt, Lucid etc). Manufacturers should understand that there is much more to it than just "converting" a normal road car to an EV. Like ksameer1234 said, this seems to be only based on academic interest. If you think again, I am guessing that govt. is going to introduce tax breaks or subsidies to manufacturers who are researching on EVs. So, may be they want to get a slice of that pie. (Pure speculation and no solid proof for what I said just now, but it seems likely). Other than that, Tiago is a heavy car which was designed to run on combustion engines and I don't see a reason for TATA to CONVERT it into an electric car.

Last edited by DieselAddikt : 30th May 2017 at 19:22.
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Old 30th May 2017, 20:17   #4
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Default re: Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

Tata probably does the most number of concepts, but their track record in actually bringing a concept to production is essentially a blank slate.

They do have the technology and also partner universities (at least in UK) to do this kind of research..but I'll believe it when I see it.

Here's a short drive review of the Tata Bolt EV
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Old 30th May 2017, 20:21   #5
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Default re: Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

A dedicated platform or not , if they launch it commercially with a price of less than 8 lakhs and a range of atleast 100 KM, then I will be the first person to lap it up.

I live in an individual house where I can arrange the charging infrastructure in a couple of days maximum and also have solar panels installed on the rooftop of my house.

I can save so much money I spend on fuel for my daily commute and short trips.
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Old 30th May 2017, 22:01   #6
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Default re: Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

While there is usually a whole era between a Statement of Intent by Tata Motors and the actual Product Launch, its good to hear that they have plans for this sector.

No manufacturer can afford NOT to have an electric drivetrain plan in their strategy, as the future of transportation - whether we like it or not (I didn't, still don't) - is clearly going the electric way. And it isn't going to be a gradual change - its going to be a wholesale shift to electric the moment the technology reaches a tipping point.

The government is also going to be supporting the initiative in a big way. As the majority of the cost of an EV is the battery (not the drivetrain), there are plans to delink the cost of batteries from the cost of the vehicle to make it more affordable (and not impose tax/duties on the battery pack).

We are probably at the threshold of a massive change - one that could reduce our reliance (pun intended) on oil drastically.

TML is making the right noises, but their vehicles need to go on a crash weight-loss program BEFORE they change diet.
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Old 30th May 2017, 22:27   #7
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Default re: Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
No manufacturer can afford NOT to have an electric drivetrain plan in their strategy, as the future of transportation - whether we like it or not (I didn't, still don't) - is clearly going the electric way. And it isn't going to be a gradual change - its going to be a wholesale shift to electric the moment the technology reaches a tipping point.
As I keep hearing, China is more or less ready to adapt electric vehicles and in Europe you hardly get to see that many electric one as they claim. And that's being the scenario..
Quote:
We are probably at the threshold of a massive change
What's the timeline one is looking at? I see few Mahindra's (REVA) in Bangalore only. I may sound negative but how much time you think and we need
to embrace this change?
Quote:
TML is making the right noises, but their vehicles need to go on a crash weight-loss program BEFORE they change diet.
At this moment take this as a part of their CSR activities.
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Old 30th May 2017, 23:20   #8
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Default re: Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

My friend residing in UK has a Nissan Leaf. He tells me that it has a range of 100 to 120 miles per charge with option of charging with household supply which takes 8 hours or with special charging ports installed in homes which take up to 3 and a half hours for full charge. Additionally they have charging stations at various points which give an 80% charge in 20 mins flat. This range is comparable to a full tank of CNG in our CNG powered cars which many people use today. If a manufacturer brings an electric car with range in same ballpark figures i.e. 160-200 km per charge then we may see that revolution happening. Otherwise it will remain just a dream which any carmaker worth his salt shows to the public to preserve it's environment care credentials while at same time making machines which spew noxious substances to the tune of thousands of tonnes in our atmosphere.
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Old 31st May 2017, 02:43   #9
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Default re: Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudra Sen View Post
As I keep hearing, China is more or less ready to adapt electric vehicles and in Europe you hardly get to see that many electric one as they claim. And that's being the scenario..
Chief, just check out the dwindling investments in conventional IC vehicles worldwide. Where the investment goes now decides how the future will pan out. Every automotive major is investing in electric mobility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudra Sen View Post
What's the timeline one is looking at? I see few Mahindra's (REVA) in Bangalore only. I may sound negative but how much time you think and we need to embrace this change?
The 'change' will happen first in public transport and in city vehicles, and that should start seeing some momentum from 2019. If successful, that should lead the perception change.

TML and AL electric buses should ideally find faster adoption rates than Mahindra Reva (which is a poor excuse for an automobile first and foremost, and absolutely the wrong flag-bearer for electric mobility). BYD is betting big on India, as are a couple of other chinese bus makers.

Amongst the Japs, there is Mitsubishi in the bus space with what is probably the most mature solution of the lot. And in cars, Nissan-Renault already produce more electric cars than Tesla.

India will adopt quickly - at the end of the day, we are a "kitna deta hai" country. Once people wake up to the economics of paying approximately 1/5th of their current fuel cost per km for energy (calculated for commercial vehicles) and an estimated 1/10th in running maintenance costs, they wont need much convincing.

Better get used to instant torque and zero engine NVH, no regular oil and filter changes, no radiators, turbos, intercoolers, exhaust systems to fix. Sure there will be new problems with new tech, but with approximately 1/10th of the moving parts they will be significantly fewer and far in between.

Manufacturers are going to have to invent a whole new operational cash-flow model if this works out.

Last edited by Steeroid : 31st May 2017 at 03:06.
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Old 31st May 2017, 07:21   #10
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Default re: Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

I think the reason behind Tata Motors leveraging the Tiago platform is to minimize cost which would be prohibitive compared to an all new platform.

Having said that, I don't think India is ready for EVs as yet in comparison with what the US/Europe or China have done. Pls note that all these 3 markets have achieved self sufficiency in power generation and have been running big surpluses.

We, on the other hand, are consistently missing our power generation goals every plan period. With the new Govt having come in 2014 and growth being put back on track, one expects steep increase in demand from industries as well as overall domestic demand going up due to higher disposable incomes and discretionary spending.

Hence going aggressive on EVs without the basics sorted just doesn't make sense. And I am not even going to the charging infrastructure part. Until then, the EVs will merely be status symbols for the well heeled "green" brigade.

On a sensational note, I feel this whole thrust on EVs is just another conspiracy by the Western world to keep their economies boiling given that most of the EV technologies originated there and at the same time the pressure on emerging markets to curtail their growth in the garb of containing "emissions". I don't, however advocate usage of polluting fossil fuel technologies - but rather keep innovating on the IC engine space itself to make it cleaner and make structural changes to urban transport infrastructure to improve overall efficiency.

Last edited by narayan : 31st May 2017 at 07:24.
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Old 31st May 2017, 10:07   #11
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Default re: Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

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Originally Posted by narayan View Post
I
On a sensational note, I feel this whole thrust on EVs is just another conspiracy by the Western world to keep their economies boiling given that most of the EV technologies originated there
What kind of an argument is that? The internal combustion engine technology originated in the "western world" too. Forget engines, even the safety-pin was invented in the "western world". So, do you see a conspiracy by the "western world" every time you see a safety-pin?

As far as Tata's EV is concerned...., I am still waiting for Nexon after seeing the "production-ready" variant in 2016 atuo expo.
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Old 31st May 2017, 10:24   #12
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Default re: Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by narayan View Post
Having said that, I don't think India is ready for EVs as yet in comparison with what the US/Europe or China have done. Pls note that all these 3 markets have achieved self sufficiency in power generation and have been running big surpluses.

Hence going aggressive on EVs without the basics sorted just doesn't make sense. And I am not even going to the charging infrastructure part. Until then, the EVs will merely be status symbols for the well heeled "green" brigade.
I keep hearing comments from many people in most of the EV forums saying India is not ready with electricity and charging infrastructure.

But the fact is lot of improvements happened in the last 2-3 years. Currently many states like Gujarat, Andhra Pradesh, Maharashtra, Chattisgarh have surplus power even during peak summer. At this right moment, there is 7000 MW of power available at national exchange at very cheap rate (Rs 2.43 per unit). See below link and its dynamic.

http://vidyutpravah.in/

India power deficit is now just 0.7% compared to 4% just 3 years back. With rural electrification programmes and growth rates power demand will be increased but the existing coal power plants and rapid growth of solar and wind power projects means we will have enough power to meet future demands.

Andhra Pradesh alone added 2,193 MW of wind power capacity and 1200+ MW of solar power capacity in the last financial year (2016-17). Rajasthan, Tamilnadu, Karnataka, Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat, etc... are adding more solar and wind power projects ever year.

In fact coal power plant PLF (plant load factor) is just around 60% in 2016-17 because of the clean power plant additions. That means they are only being utilized for 60% of their full capacity. Many of the state DISCOMs signed power purchase agreements with many private companies to invest coal power plants in the last decade. Many states are not purchasing power from these power plants because of excess power. But the states need to pay minimum amount to these companies as they have purchase agreements. This money will be indirectly be charged from people only. So EVs actually help increase the demand to some extent.

Also in the last 5 years central and state govts are spending lots of money in transmission infrastructure as well.

Charging infrastructure is much easier to setup than fuel outlets. You will see lot of FDI money coming to EV infrastructure field in the next few years just like solar industry. Most of these will have captive solar and wind plants to power these charging stations. Economies of scale will quickly bring the cost of batteries down in the next 3-4 years just like in the solar industry.

Ex: Solar power cost per unit
2010 - Rs 11
2015 - Rs 5.
2017 - Rs 2.44 per unit.

Major reasons for this rapid reduction in last 2 years is govt thrust for clean power, panel cost reduction, competitive auctions by govt, lot of foreign companies with tons of money investing (FDIs).

We will have issues in the path to clean revolution but that does not mean that we should not try to accelerate the plan.
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Old 31st May 2017, 10:52   #13
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Default re: Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by narayan View Post
On a sensational note, I feel this whole thrust on EVs is just another conspiracy by the Western world..
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlil View Post
What kind of an argument is that?
The argument actually makes sense. In developing nations, 100% population has not even had an opportunity to purchase any vehicle, let alone an electric one. In such case, pushing new technology is like shifting goal-posts. Indian manufacturers have only now got good enough to compete with global car makers and now suddenly run risk of becoming obsolete due to push for EVs.

The likes of Tata and Mahindra need to move very fast in EV space. Otherwise whatever foothold they have gained over decades will quickly get wiped out by global manufacturers who already have mature EVs waiting to simply launch in India.
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Old 31st May 2017, 11:21   #14
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Default re: Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksameer1234 View Post
The argument actually makes sense. In developing nations, 100% population has not even had an opportunity to purchase any vehicle, let alone an electric one. In such case, pushing new technology is like shifting goal-posts. Indian manufacturers have only now got good enough to compete with global car makers and now suddenly run risk of becoming obsolete due to push for EVs.

The likes of Tata and Mahindra need to move very fast in EV space. Otherwise whatever foothold they have gained over decades will quickly get wiped out by global manufacturers who already have mature EVs waiting to simply launch in India.
In my opinion, its actually blessing in disguise for the developing nations. They will be directly moving to cleaner vehicles without pollution issues. This is similar to what happened to India and other countries with telephone industry. Most of the areas in India went directly from no phone to mobile phone unlike many western countries where the land line infrastructure become obsolete once the mobile telephony grown exponentially in quick time.

Its what is happening in many of the African countries where they are going directly from no power to clean power in terms of solar.

I don't understand why people are worried about if Indian companies like Tata or Mahindra can gain EV foothold or not. Most of the people don't care if they are buying Indian or foreign brand.

Tata owns Jaguar which is working on full electric I-PACE SUV next year. So they have the technology compared to many competitors like Suzuki, Honda or even Toyota. They need to see this EV revolution as an opportunity rather than worrying about ICE cars becoming obsolete.

Mahindra has REVA brand but they spend tiny amounts in developing EVs. But they are more interested in slicing cars into half (TUV300) to meet the 4-meter limit.

Last edited by sri_tesla : 31st May 2017 at 11:26.
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Old 31st May 2017, 11:26   #15
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Default re: Tata Motors working on all-electric Tiago. EDIT: Pics on page 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudra Sen View Post
What's the timeline one is looking at?
Some links that you could browse, Rudro:


Niti Aayog's latest working paper on Mobility Solutions for India - you will find a massive accent on urban transport and electrification in this.

ET report on major policy changes to support the shift to electric mobility to 2030

Suzuki to setup auto battery plant in India - thats the passenger vehicle industry leader investing in an electric future

Plans to make commercial electric vehicles permit-free
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