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Old 3rd July 2017, 18:56   #16
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

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Originally Posted by Storm2.0 View Post
Hello all ! I just have one query, is this engine a downsized version of Fiat's 1.6 litre Multijet diesel engine or it's a newly developed engine by Suzuki.
This is in house Suzuki diesel engine. Suzuki has no rights to make any tweaks / localise 1.6 Fiat engine.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 19:19   #17
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

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Originally Posted by bhpfaninblr View Post
It could be better than the Multijet as well. See Hyundai has made an engine more refined that Multijet in the form of their 1.6 CRDI. Let us not compare the Celerio here as that was too ambitious in the form of a 2 cylinder diesel engine
I hope this will become true. But I'm also afraid it won't be the reality.

1. Suzuki is no Hyundai. Hyundai has much deeper R&D pockets being the 5th biggest car brand in the world, along with sister brand Kia in 8th. Suzuki is alone at 18th with MSIL at 20th.

2. Hyundai has been at the diesel game for a long time now and possibly produce the best diesels in the mass market now.

Whereas this is Maruti and Suzuki's first real effort.

3. It's not that easy to get a diesel engine to perform at extremely high pressures, while reducing weight to plonk into light Japanese cars - and subsequently reducing the vibrations as well. Even Honda, previously known for the engines, had to take their time to master this art.

So, like I said - I'll be happy to see this engine performing better than the 1.6 DDiS. But with the reality of their R&D efforts, I hope they don't release it without adequate refinement levels due to cost pressure like how they did for the Celerio. Celerio is a test platform for them and risks can be taken. However, Ciaz is finally getting established against the City, so they need to take calculated moves.

Anyways, let's hope MSIL has a big surprise up their sleeves.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 3rd July 2017 at 19:21.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 19:33   #18
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
...
2. Hyundai has been at the diesel game for a long time now and possibly produce the best diesels in the mass market now.

Whereas this is Maruti and Suzuki's first real effort.

3. It's not that easy to get a diesel engine to perform at extremely high pressures, while reducing weight to plonk into light Japanese cars - and subsequently reducing the vibrations as well. Even Honda, previously known for the engines, had to take their time to master this art...
Very true. But I would like to be positive as I feel that Maruti Suzuki have been much much better at tuning the Fiat Diesels. As we can see in the market, the Swift has the same engine as Punto. Swift being a lighter car than the Punto, is much better in terms of performance and refinement. The 1.3 MJD/DDIS engine has been in a better tune in the hands of Maruti Suzuki.

Even though their first real effort building a diesel engine, it comes with a rich 10 year + history of playing around with the best diesel engine on the block..!
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Old 3rd July 2017, 20:01   #19
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

swift ddis is tuned for maximum performance below 80 kmph
punto mjd starts performance after 80 kmph and uptil 180 kmph.

In day-to-day stop-start city driving conditions swift ddis will give impression of quick response and nimblefootedness. It is just that maruti have tuned it for lower-end performance.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 22:06   #20
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

We own a Ciaz 2017 in the family, we have 2 other cars belonging to the same segment as well. A 2017 Skoda Rapid Diesel DSG and a Honda City i-vtec 2013.

After driving the Ciaz since April, I have to say that I haven't really felt a lack of power as such. I kinda enjoy driving it at a slow to moderate pace which is how I felt the whole car is rather inclined towards.

Don't get me wrong, yeah a 1.6 etc would give it better legs to compete with the competition, but is it really all that required?

For example, when I roll down the power windows up front, the plastic panel just below it moves. A clear sign of a rather not so good build. The rear window curtain thing has this little clamp which vibrates and makes a rather unsettling noise in the cabin. To me these are the only issues with the car.

Its pretty big, and rather wades around than cuts across the traffic. Just my opinion after driving the above mentioned cars extensively. My dad had a Crown Victoria back in the day and the Ciaz does remind me strongly of it. Extremely comfortable car this. Not a drivers car though. The Skoda Rapid DSG makes me grin from ear to ear whenever I drive it.

So my answer is, more than outright engine power, overall improvement on all the aspects, a little bit of sportiness with some good power should be quite good on this car.

I'm not really a speed demon so please pardon my views

Regards
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Old 4th July 2017, 00:23   #21
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

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Originally Posted by iamahunter View Post
Very true. But I would like to be positive as I feel that Maruti Suzuki have been much much better at tuning the Fiat Diesels. As we can see in the market, the Swift has the same engine as Punto. Swift being a lighter car than the Punto, is much better in terms of performance and refinement. The 1.3 MJD/DDIS engine has been in a better tune in the hands of Maruti Suzuki.

Even though their first real effort building a diesel engine, it comes with a rich 10 year + history of playing around with the best diesel engine on the block..!
This isn't about simple conjecture, it's a known fact that Suzuki's diesel engine program has had a pretty bumpy ride till very recently, they were forced to postpone the engine's launch by nearly two years due to unacceptable performance & refinement levels.

WRT to working with the Multijet, thing is it's almost an apples & oranges comparison, MS will always be facing an uphill battle as they're using an aluminium cylinder block like Honda, which isn't going to be as forgiving as the cast iron block in the Multijet when it comes to NVH characteristics.

Also, based on what's been published & the information that the company has shared, it seems that the 1.5l engine is a 4 cylinder version of the 800cc engine from the Celerio. It remains to be seen how similar the 2 engines truly are, whether the larger displacement engine will come with a common rail system or the distributor pump esque one from the 800cc. Not sure if that's contributing the higher NVH issues too.

I would really love to be a fly on the wall at the meetings where the engine is compared to it's competitors, it would be interesting to know whether the benchmark for Suzuki in terms of refinement is Hyundai, Honda or somewhere in between.
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Old 4th July 2017, 11:40   #22
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

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Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
Can't Maruti manufacture 1.6 Fiat engine under their license as they do for 1.3 Mutijet?
A car maker as huge as Maruti can't be eternally dependent on a 3rd party for something as critical as an engine. Just the fact that Maruti is using the 1.3L MJD since over a decade (with no proper diesel of their own) shows the laziness & lack of initiative of their R&D department in this area.

There's not only the financial cost associated with outsourcing your engine, but also the risks of dependency.
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Old 4th July 2017, 11:58   #23
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

Just speculating here - with Suzuki and Toyota now in a global partnership, is this the first "child" of this partnership? We all know that Toyota has very deep pockets and spends a ton of money on R&D.

Could the 1.5 diesel in this Ciaz be a bored out and updated 1.4 D-4D (which is currently doing duty in Etios)?

Last edited by KiloAlpha : 4th July 2017 at 11:59. Reason: re-wording for clarity
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Old 4th July 2017, 13:16   #24
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

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Originally Posted by KiloAlpha View Post
Just speculating here - with Suzuki and Toyota now in a global partnership, is this the first "child" of this partnership? We all know that Toyota has very deep pockets and spends a ton of money on R&D.

Could the 1.5 diesel in this Ciaz be a bored out and updated 1.4 D-4D (which is currently doing duty in Etios)?
No. It is certainly not!

The Suzuki - Toyota partnership was announced in Oct 2016 and the MOU signed in Feb 2017. They will be working towards vehicle safety and green cars.

The development of the 1.5 diesel engine was reported way back from 2014 onwards. It was targetted for 2016, but later Suzuki announced that it would be made available only near 2018 as it was proving to be a steep learning curve for them.

Suzuki tested the two cylinder version of it in the Celerio and the LCV in 2015, which as we all know was a failure. Now, they've taken more than 2 years after that effort - so hopefully, things have been sorted out in-house now.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 4th July 2017 at 13:17.
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Old 4th July 2017, 14:45   #25
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

What is stopping Maruti from developing their own diesel engines when Tata and Mahindra has already developed so many diesel engines on their own in various sizes and power figures?
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Old 4th July 2017, 14:54   #26
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

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What is stopping Maruti from developing their own diesel engines when Tata and Mahindra has already developed so many diesel engines on their own in various sizes and power figures?
The most popular 2.2 engine used by these two are both AVL sourced.

None of the others engines from both these car makers, especially the smaller ones in their lineup have been nothing worth talking about - when it comes to parameters like specific output and refinement.

For example, imagine the refinement of the 1.5L engine in the TUV300 in a light car like the Ciaz. The engine shakes the 'tank like' TUV itself during startup, the Ciaz might be rocked so bad as to give the passengers motion sickness.
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Old 4th July 2017, 15:22   #27
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

The Hyundai diesel engines are jointly developed with Detroit Diesel.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...dai-Motor.html

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...1102130400.htm

Pradeep



Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post

1. Suzuki is no Hyundai. Hyundai has much deeper R&D pockets being the 5th biggest car brand in the world, along with sister brand Kia in 8th. Suzuki is alone at 18th with MSIL at 20th.

2. Hyundai has been at the diesel game for a long time now and possibly produce the best diesels in the mass market now.

Whereas this is Maruti and Suzuki's first real effort.

3. It's not that easy to get a diesel engine to perform at extremely high pressures, while reducing weight to plonk into light Japanese cars - and subsequently reducing the vibrations as well. Even Honda, previously known for the engines, had to take their time to master this art.

So, like I said - I'll be happy to see this engine performing better than the 1.6 DDiS. But with the reality of their R&D efforts, I hope they don't release it without adequate refinement levels due to cost pressure like how they did for the Celerio. Celerio is a test platform for them and risks can be taken. However, Ciaz is finally getting established against the City, so they need to take calculated moves.

Anyways, let's hope MSIL has a big surprise up their sleeves.
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Old 4th July 2017, 16:01   #28
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

Pardon me, to me it still isn't very clear if the engine is developed in house by MSIL or Suzuki Japan? Or is it made in Japan, but being tested in India?

Anyways, IMHO the Indian automotive companies have still not pioneered the art of designing engines, gearboxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
The most popular 2.2 engine used by these two are both AVL sourced.
I believed that Tata & Mahindra are the only Indigenous engine designers till I saw your post.

Last edited by jetsetgo08 : 4th July 2017 at 16:04.
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Old 5th July 2017, 06:00   #29
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

This is good news. Though it will be better to know more about the parameters used for testing the 1.5 DDiS.

The important ones are the following I suppose.
1) Reliability
2) Efficiency
3) Cost
4) Performance
6) Emissions
5) NVH

The top three parameters are very important for Maruti. And the relation of some parameters in there is inversely proportional to the others. So, this is tough business.

I have a feeling it is fair to expect MSIL to not take too many risks with the top three parameters. So, we might be looking at an engine closer in philosophy to the iDTEC from Honda than a CRDi from Hyundai.

It will be reliable, efficient and will have adequate torque since there is displacement, but it will be tough to expect it to match the CRDi units or the MJD even.

Unless Suzuki is working closely with a engine partner from Europe. Hyundai got all the help to slow down the clock by working closely with Detroit Diesel and VM Motori. It will be great if Suzuki can find a partner like that. Hyundai is good now because they started with common rails early enough when the market wasn't expecting a whole lot from diesel engines and the competition was also non-existent. At least that was the case in the India market. The only other manufacturer to have CRDi engines back then was Mercedes. And now, the Koreans have come a very long way. Kudos to them for that!

So, it will be foolish to expect this new engine to push the known boundaries of performance or NVH from the first iteration itself. Hopefully Suzuki has spend a lot of effort and money on this one as there is a lot riding on this engine for them. The segments from 10 to 20 lakhs awaits with bated breath!
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Old 5th July 2017, 09:20   #30
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

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Originally Posted by pradkumar View Post
The Hyundai diesel engines are jointly developed with Detroit Diesel.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...dai-Motor.html

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...1102130400.htm

Pradeep
Wrong info. They outsourced a 1.5 and 2.2 litre diesels to them in mid 2000. Later, Hyundai diesels were completely designed in-house and their range of U2 CRDi engines, from the 1.2 litre all the way to 2.2 litre are designed and engineered by Hyundai to meet global demand. Their R&D particularly focussed on NVH levels and performance and that's what you get in their diesels.
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