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Old 30th July 2017, 20:52   #46
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
We can say that only once a reasonably priced small turbo petrol is launched in the market. Both the options you qouted above are very expensive compared to their regular variants.
A few cracker Turbo petrols in "small cars" are the 1.2 TSI, 1.0 Boosterjet and the 1.0 Ecoboost.

Out of these, the TSI sells low because the Polo is overshadowed by many cars and its only the enthusiasts who are willing to pay a premium over the regular petrol. The Baleno boosterjet is a lesson in how not to price a car(More expensive than a diesel with more torque )

The only one left is the Ecoboost which is actually only about 30k over the regular 1.5 petrol. But it is clear that neither the market or Ford wants that engine in the base models, as it would jack up the figurative entry pricing. But the variants that did come with both engine options, ecoboost was selling well. Now its impossible to compare the price difference.

My 2 cents are, until the indian scene puts importance on power and low emissions, manufacturers will keep turbo petrols as a niche offering. You think an average 30 yr old lady cares whether her petrol car is a turbo or not?
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Old 30th July 2017, 22:20   #47
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

A notable R&D milestone for MSIL was shoehorning the Peugeot sourced TUD5 in the ZEN back in 1998. Having owned the car I can vouch for its excellent drivability, reliability and economy. NVH though wasn't a strong point. Not that anyone bothered given the excellent fuel economy, and resale value.

The Celerio is a flop for sure. However that doesn't stop me from being amazed about how tractable a tiny two pot engine can be made. Once you get over the commercial vehicle sounding startup and idle the car is fun to drive. So MSIL R&D in my opinion shouldn't be written off.

One thing I almost take for granted from any new Maruti is the economy and drivability.
However refinement could be a hurdle. The Fiat 1.6 in the Scross is a strong motor however the refinement is long way from the one in the Creta. and I think this along with the high cost of importing the engine and gearbox would have prompted MSIL for developing one locally.

Hope MSIL R&D is able to deliver a silky smooth 120BHP 250NM motor.
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Old 30th July 2017, 22:45   #48
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Originally Posted by agambhandari View Post
You think an average 30 yr old lady cares whether her petrol car is a turbo or not?
I hope no lady reads this. Otherwise Bhandari babu, god save you from wrath of motoring divas. B-)

Last edited by wanderhermit : 30th July 2017 at 22:46.
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Old 30th July 2017, 22:55   #49
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

The 1.5L Diesel will make it's way into Dzire, Ciaz, S-Cross ( next generation), Brezza etc. Debut model would be Ciaz 2018 followed by Dzire. This is what my birdies say. The engine would be 100HP or so and quieter than the MJD. No news of a VGT option. The 1.3MJD would coexist.
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Old 31st July 2017, 10:39   #50
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

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The 1.5L Diesel will make it's way into Dzire, Ciaz, S-Cross ( next generation), Brezza etc. Debut model would be Ciaz 2018 followed by Dzire. This is what my birdies say. The engine would be 100HP or so and quieter than the MJD. No news of a VGT option. The 1.3MJD would coexist.
Thanks Carma2017. A 100 BHP engine with a fixed geometry turbocharger. A variable geometry turbocharger can take it closer to 115 bhp or 120 bhp but they will probably keep it for later.
Any news on the torque? Given the celerio diesel made 47 bhp and good amount of torque, it would not be unreasonable to expect 250 NM of torque in the 1.5 L diesel

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Originally Posted by sureshkishore View Post
The Celerio is a flop for sure. However that doesn't stop me from being amazed about how tractable a tiny two pot engine can be made. Once you get over the commercial vehicle sounding startup and idle the car is fun to drive. So MSIL R&D in my opinion shouldn't be written off.

One thing I almost take for granted from any new Maruti is the economy and drivability.
However refinement could be a hurdle. The Fiat 1.6 in the Scross is a strong motor however the refinement is long way from the one in the Creta. and I think this along with the high cost of importing the engine and gearbox would have prompted MSIL for developing one locally.

Hope MSIL R&D is able to deliver a silky smooth 120BHP 250NM motor.
Looks like it is a 100 BHP power engine with a fixed geometry turbocharger. 250 Nm seems given. With a VGT 115-120 bhp should be possible.

Agree with you that the 1.6 refinement is a long way away from the Hyundai. Great thing from Carma2017 (always reliable) post is that this is going to be quieter than the 1.3 MJD. Now that is a big jump in refinement from the Celerio
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Old 31st July 2017, 19:10   #51
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

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Thanks Carma2017. A 100 BHP engine with a fixed geometry turbocharger. A variable geometry turbocharger can take it closer to 115 bhp or 120 bhp but they will probably keep it for later.
Any news on the torque? Given the celerio diesel made 47 bhp and good amount of torque, it would not be unreasonable to expect 250 NM of torque in the 1.5 L diesel
Given the numbers, they're clearly targeting the Honda 1.5 diesel. With that target in mind, I'd be surprised if they gave 250Nm torque with a FGT. The reasons being: a lower inertia turbo is preferable for urban drivability and a torque figure (speculated here) at the higher end of the spectrum will tell upon the longevity of the turbo and its parts. I don't think MSIL would risk their reputation, but play safe, as their competitor is happy to offer 200Nm.

My guess is 200 - 220 Nm for the FGT and much higher for the VGT if launched. I'd be happy to be proved wrong though.

Last edited by swiftdiesel : 31st July 2017 at 19:13.
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Old 31st July 2017, 23:39   #52
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

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Given the numbers, they're clearly targeting the Honda 1.5 diesel. With that target in mind, I'd be surprised if they gave 250Nm torque with a FGT. The reasons being: a lower inertia turbo is preferable for urban drivability and a torque figure (speculated here) at the higher end of the spectrum will tell upon the longevity of the turbo and its parts. I don't think MSIL would risk their reputation, but play safe, as their competitor is happy to offer 200Nm.

My guess is 200 - 220 Nm for the FGT and much higher for the VGT if launched. I'd be happy to be proved wrong though.
If you see diesel engines with FGT and VGT, VGT increase torque marginally by 5% or 7% and increases the bhp by 20%.
Consider Fiat 1.3 Multijet with FGT sold as DDiS 190 in Suzuki Maruti vehicles. It has 75 bhp power and 190Nm torque
Fiat 1.3 Multijet with VGT sold as DDiS 200 in Maruti Suzuki vehicles has 90bhp power and 200 Nm torque

So the torque will definitely be close to 250 Nm for a 1.5 Diesel engine
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Old 1st August 2017, 05:44   #53
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Default Re: Rumour: Maruti successfully tests Ciaz 1.5L diesel

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If you see diesel engines with FGT and VGT, VGT increase torque marginally by 5% or 7% and increases the bhp by 20%.
This is not necessarily so. The same 1.3 MJD can be tuned to output even 250Nm with a VGT and that's more than a marginal increase. Renault's 1.5 dCi outputs 67 bhp with a small FGT all the way to 110 bhp with a VGT. The final figures boil down to engine design and the size of the turbo and the increase can be marginal or exceptional as the case may be.

250Nm from a 1.5 diesel is at the higher end of the spectrum and hard to achieve with a FGT. Even if they did use a large FGT, it's gonna have a definite lag and that's gonna affect drivability. I'm sure MSIL would love to leave that 'turbolag' tag far behind with their new engine.

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Originally Posted by bhpfaninblr View Post
So the torque will definitely be close to 250 Nm for a 1.5 Diesel engine
I reckon you missed my point. I don't deny it's feasibility, technically; but MSIL wouldn't launch it with such a tune is what I reckon after years of observing their conservative approach. Their 1.6 DDiS was the first performance diesel ever from their stable! And they have been in the diesel business for close to a decade. This being their first ever in-house diesel, I don't think they'd go the performance route right away but spec it conservatively, at least for the next few years.

Toyota is another example. For years, the last gen Innova had to make do with a detuned engine. With competition, Toyota have finally provided powerful engines. But that's not the case with MSIL's ballpark. It's only the Duster that outputs about 245Nm torque. Every other sedan or hatchback with a 1.5 diesel output far lesser. So why would MSIL jeopardise their own reputation? Again, I'd be very happy to be proved wrong. I want them to launch their diesel with 250Nm torque or more but I'm afraid that wouldn't be the case.

Last edited by swiftdiesel : 1st August 2017 at 06:01.
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