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Old 27th July 2017, 20:34   #31
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

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Originally Posted by AkMar View Post
A few days ago, dad sent me photos saying that a part of rear wheel well cladding is missing on both sides in his new WR-V S iVTEC.
Am I surprised? No no no! Not at all! There are similar bodily differences with various trims in Jazz as well. For instance, Jazz VX comes equipped with fender covers and mud guards. A step down, mud guards go missing in Jazz V. A step further down, both mud guards & fender covers go missing in Jazz SV. Thankfully, fenders do not go missing going down a step further.

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Originally Posted by AkMar View Post
I wonder when will Honda learn? Doesn't the failures of Mobilio, new Brio teach them anything at all?
I do not think, Honda is willing to learn in any near future. Sharing below is the response from Honda Cars India Limited to me in response to rusted tie rods & knuckle. It is now a standard in all Jazz & City, not sure about the rest. Notice the key word "aesthetic". In response to me being incorrectly billed by 2 different HASS, they have washed away their hands by saying "clerical error". I only know how I had to make HASS understand who left no stone unturned to take me for a ride.

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Dear Sir,

With reference to your concerns we would like to submit as follows:

# Related rusting on tie rod:
The rusting observed in your vehicle during the inspection has been found to be superficial in nature and it has no affect whatsoever on the performance of the car over time. You would acknowledge that all parts fitted to the car (specially the ones with no aesthetic value) may develop superficial rust on the exposed area.We assure you of the performance and quality of the vehicle and request you to not keep any apprehension on the same.

# Related engine oil amount:
We understand that our dealership have already confirmed you to refund you the excess amount charged for engine oil. We have taken necessary counter measures to avoid recurrence of the similar concern.The same was a clerical error and taken up with respective person in charge.

For any further assistance please do write again.

Kind regards,

XYZ XYZ
Customer Relations
Honda Cars India Ltd.
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Originally Posted by libranof1987 View Post
I own one of those and it is ridiculous.
I own a 2008 Honda City ZX Exi(base variant). No signs of cost cutting anywhere except the OEM tyres which were MRF. Rest, it has all the claddings, no exposed parts. Just perfect!

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Originally Posted by narayans80 View Post
Honda's learnt all sorts of wrong lessons in cost cutting and did a very bad job at it. Their Brio, Amaze and Mobilio are perfect examples of blatant cost cutting.
The thing is, they aren't learning from their mistakes and are bent upon repeating them time and again.

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Originally Posted by narayans80 View Post
This is a stark contrast to the image the brand had in India a decade back. A close friend of mine still owns a decade old Accord in US with 185K miles on clock.
It takes products, ages, consistency, strategies, perseverance & trust to build a brand. The Honda brand in India is simply going to dogs though.

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Originally Posted by PPS View Post
Not surprising, in my 2014 Amaze EX there isn't any internal adjustment/joystick for the ORVM's. To adjust the ORVMs, you have to roll the window down, stretch and move the mirror with your hands!
Honda needs go the either way: Premium or Basic. How much did Honda save here? More than the inconvenience & a bad mouth?

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Originally Posted by Leoshashi View Post
Honda has been notorious for this habit, and we have seen missing NVH shield and air intake ducts in lower variants of Hondas.
May be that's something of aesthetic value to Honda.

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Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
The Japanese have survived on reliability and fuel efficiency long enough..
Agree! For someone like me for whom "under the hood" is the most important than anything else, it is the reliability of Honda cars still letting it sail. I hope, Honda atleast maintains this aspect.

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
Honda want to reposition themselves as the semi-premium brand they originally were,...
Semi-premium brand? Yes, today, and if the trend continues, soon a "no premium" brand for sure. With Maruti trying hard to build its premium image with Nexa, Honda may soon get positioned below Maruti.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Penny wise, pound foolish. Short-term thinking, not long-term. Sucks to see Honda going down this road.
I think there's something really wrong with the think tank of Honda India. They are bent upon ruining themselves. My next car won't be a Honda for sure!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Maybe Honda are trying to rediscover their roots. Whereas the Civic and the Accord became quite classy cars, the original civic was very basic. I think the one I drove was 1st generation, made in 1974: when I had it, it was 13 years old. It was a good little car, with a pokey engine (although the torque-converter auto soaked up a lot of the poke) but finish, fixtures and fittings... very basic. Almost reminiscent of the Mini. Well, OK, the heater was not an optional extra.
Sir, the times have changed. Its the age when market is flooded with acute competition. More so, forget the features, even there's a steep fall in the quality noticed in Honda cars. Though basic, you remember that '74 Civic for its quality and quality never goes out of style. On the similar lines, even those early '80s Maruti Suzuki(all Japanese) were gem of the cars(basic of course).

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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
It's only us petrolheads who have keen observation abilities to notice these things in our car.
Correct, masses at large generally go merely with looks and features for the price they pay.

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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
Honda sure doesn't seem to be learning from the failures of the cars built on the Brio platform.
IMO, the VFM Brio platform should be discontinued and Honda should focus on bringing more of truly international cars to India with all the features and quality built-in to every single nut used in construction(weather visible or not). Its the high time for them to act, or be prepared the GM way.

Thanks!

Last edited by Nohonking : 27th July 2017 at 20:59. Reason: checking smilie usage
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Old 27th July 2017, 21:06   #32
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

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Originally Posted by govindremesh View Post
I think we've gone into Honda bashing mode in the community here. Nowadays, we have a problem with almost everything Honda does
I don't think so really. We tend to view things with some amount of confirmation bias.

Maruti often gets brickbats for skimping on safety and build, VW/Skoda for exorbitant service costs, Tata and Fiat for poor QC, Hyundai for overpricing cars and so on. When manufacturers try these silly tricks, you can bet someone will see through it and post about it here - Honda is no different.

I welcome this critical approach. It makes it more likely that all our next cars will have full wheel well cladding
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Old 27th July 2017, 23:43   #33
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
I don't think so really. We tend to view things with some amount of confirmation bias.

Maruti often gets brickbats for skimping on safety and build, VW/Skoda for exorbitant service costs, Tata and Fiat for poor QC, Hyundai for overpricing cars and so on. When manufacturers try these silly tricks, you can bet someone will see through it and post about it here - Honda is no different.

I welcome this critical approach. It makes it more likely that all our next cars will have full wheel well cladding
Keeping in mind the points you mentioned, if a person is interested in buying a car which has good safety/ build, acceptable service cost at a value for money price then there's no company that can be trusted blindly. Toyota has QC issues (Innova Crysta), Ford's build quality is started to degrade.
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Old 28th July 2017, 09:59   #34
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

Are these critical engine parts missing in base trim has no bearing on the reliability and operational life of the engine?

The engine / product development team must have kept it for specific performance attribute; how come the marketing / pricing team can take a call on making decision to drop these parts from the lower trims?

There trims should be mechanically identical. Is it possible that even QA/QC on lower trims is relatively poor? As specific trims are produced in lots, so there are shifts for E, for V for SV trims - quite possible, they are producing something with different quality control also !

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Old 28th July 2017, 10:04   #35
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

"A guy throws garbage in the street, two others follow suit. We catch the third guy but then he justifies his throwing and tells us that unless the other two stop, he won't. We catch the first guy and he says "make India like Singapore and I'll stop". Now everyone throws garbage on the streets and we go backward. "

This thread pattern above.
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Old 28th July 2017, 11:50   #36
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

And our phoren-brand enamoured junta will still buy over-priced, under-specced, and bare bones cars from japs/koreans/germans while ignoring brilliant offerings from India manufacturers.

It is high time we look at XUV/Hexa/Nexon/Tigor etc. as viable alternative. Gap in fit & finish quality is rapidly narrowing and Indians are ahead on material - product on product.

I bought a Manza in 2010 - and there are many small details in that one like spring-loaded handles that are missing in today's cars.
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Old 28th July 2017, 12:08   #37
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

Barring the lack of safety regulations, I think another main reason manufactures can get away with all this is because we let them. They know that despite all the complaining, we'll still send up buying the lower end trims, where half the parts are 'not included' because that is what we are comfortable paying for.

If it's features what you're craving for, go for the highest trim on a lower segment.

We also have the option to choose whichever make or model we want. There is no point arguing with the dealer about a missing part. If he's not ready to listen, simply move over to another one. It's his loss.

On a side note, I always ask the sales rep for the specs of the lowest trim and then work upwards from there. It's an easy way to know what features are being skimmed on
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Old 28th July 2017, 13:44   #38
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

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Originally Posted by 5kmiles View Post
It is high time we look at XUV/Hexa/Nexon/Tigor etc
.

The problem is XUV is desirable only from W8 variant. Till W6 it does not look VFM. Hexa again XM is badly specced. Only XT and above has decent features. Tigor has its own weakness in terms of Engine. Why would someone buy Tigor over Tiago if they are not worried about the boot?

Now where Honda fools us is give tangible jugaads like ACC, 7 inch touch screen, Sunroof etc and delete intangible ones like 6 airbags, Boot and wheel well claddings etc. Anything which we can see and touch, makes an instant impact
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Old 28th July 2017, 13:48   #39
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

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Originally Posted by Biohazard View Post
Barring the lack of safety regulations, I think another main reason manufactures can get away with all this is because we let them. They know that despite all the complaining, we'll still send up buying the lower end trims, where half the parts are 'not included' because that is what we are comfortable paying for.
Now what you are referring to is a catch 22 situation. Even within our forum you will find discussions that its better to go for the next segment against the fully loaded trim of a segment lower car. Reasons cited are a robust / better platform compared to small car, and enhanced overall safety offered by the next segment.

I for one, would not expect that if I jump segments within the same budget that I have, the manufacturer will offer me a mechanically compromised car. This thread is essentially around this issue alone, though people have talked about Toyota and other players; the problem is specific to lower trim / entry level trim of Honda. With other players, it was said, that things were compromised, but were same across all trims and not the way Honda has done with their cars.

This according to me, has not been announced by Honda, the way features are presented across multiple trims and instead discovered by owner and seconded by dealer. To further aggravate the issue, Honda had the cheek / audacity to say that this part cannot be ordered for base trim vehicle !

This is clearly unethical !

Last edited by i74js : 28th July 2017 at 13:51.
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Old 28th July 2017, 14:01   #40
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

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Originally Posted by i74js View Post
To further aggravate the issue, Honda had the cheek / audacity to say that this part cannot be ordered for base trim vehicle !

This is clearly unethical !
Maybe you should try calling back, pretending you needed to order the part for the top trim?

On a serious note, see if you can share your grievance with Honda's head office. You can mention this on their Facebook page too, as they are socially compelled to respond to your post.
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Old 28th July 2017, 15:28   #41
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

Well, I am not surprised.They do a lot of cost cutting else where as well, here is a comparison between our Honda Brio S and Chevrolet Beat LT (things same as LS variant)

1. Headlight bulbs : Cheap Halonix vs. Philips (Beat was visibly brighter when the car was new)

2. Cheap quality Wipers: Honda Started creating water stripes in one year, GM worked well for almost three years (replacement cost was higher as well for GM)

3. Tyres : Bad MRF zvtv vs. Bridgestone (Thankfully they didnt skimp much on width, but I see they do it with Jazz/City)

4. Tools wrapped in a fake leather wrap vs. foam placeholder for tools. Honda makes rattling sound and they get all over the place if they are not secured well.

5. Cheaper SF battery vs. Exide : Honda battery caused a lot of sulfation and rust.

6. Paint: Honda : Portions which are not visible (underside of boot) are not painted fully vs. consistent (all layers) paint all over in Beat . Brio's paint quality overall is average compared to Beat.

7. Shutlines: inconsistent for Honda, in case of Beat, even false ones like the one where the glued rear spoiler meets metal are consistent with door panels.

8. Boot tray: lightweight and cheaper in Brio. Even the cardboard provided to cover the spare wheel (base of the boot) is a bit thicker in case of Beat.

9. Honda engine bay has no sound insulation of any type, does get annoying when rpms rise (why couldnt they work on it ?). The Beat has it because it is a diesel and masks sounds to a great extent.

The only reason why we decided to go for the Brio was the sweet engine and better ride and handling for that price.
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Old 28th July 2017, 19:41   #42
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

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Originally Posted by AkMar View Post
If the part is cheap, then it should be there in the car in the first place! That shows the pathetic attitude of modern day Honda.

Of course, it won't affect the ownership experience as such. However as I said above, it shows the attitude of Honda towards the market. When a customer is paying almost Rs 9 lakhs, why skimp on a part which is present in higher variant & costs only a few hundred rupees? It has definitely left a sour taste in the mouth.
Honda as a business does not think that way. The air intake duct in my car that they skimped on cost aprox Rs 500. Say if they sell 20000 Brio copies ( non top end ) a year, its an addition of Rs 1 Cr ( 500 x 20000 ) to the bottomline.

I bought the product with complete knowledge that they have not put in the Air Intake which I will have to buy immediately after purchase.

To some extent we have brought this upon ourselves. Until 2009 Honda didn't skimp on important things. But everyone including this forum bashed them for not having enough features and no touchscreen. Rewind to 2009 reviews and all were saying that the Verna is a much better buy than City.

Now they have everything that visibly is there on all cars, but they lost what made them solid and complete. If as a business they need to choose between being profitable and making a sale and being the best with no customers what would they choose.

Honda of today should not be considered as a premium lifestyle product. Its a product where basics are very well engineered and is extremely cheap to maintain and service within and outside of warranty.

And it ends there!!
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Old 28th July 2017, 22:34   #43
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

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Originally Posted by NiInJa View Post
...The only reason why we decided to go for the Brio was the sweet engine and better ride and handling for that price.
I think this sentence says a lot. Ultimately, I think, the way it drives is important. Most carbuyers in India are first time buyers and wouldn't know what makes a good car, so they'll buy it. Later on they'll realize the shortcomings, but it'll be too late by then.
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Old 29th July 2017, 07:22   #44
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

Guess unlike Maruti, Hondas do not have high level of localization in their cars and have high number of components which come in from South East Asian countries. This makes the car more expensive feature to feature. This is where the cost cutting circus comes in where the designers try to cut stuff out to bridge the gap. The fact that even with all the cost cutting they are still more expensive by 1/1.5 lakh when compared to similar models from Maruti speaks volumes of their commitment to India market ( or lack thereof)
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Old 29th July 2017, 10:08   #45
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Default Re: Honda's extreme cost cutting: WR-V base variant doesn't get wheel well cladding!

Not surprising at all.
Not just Honda but Toyota and even Hyundai with the Creta (although to a lesser extent)
So my City after 3 and a half years of ownership has small dents on both side doors that look like i survived some sort of bullet attack with the car and the cause is just other cars opening their doors in the limited parking space and the poor sheet metal they used which just can't take that little hit.

Poor sound insulation comes next with not just the loud diesel engine noise filtering in but also most of outside noises which is only comparable to cars from 2 segments below. The entire experience is no where near premium even after spending more than a million bucks!
Add to that the constant rattles from the dashboard , failed attempts to fix the left side front seat from vibrating , the not so powerful power steering motor which can't take the load of my 205 R16 tyres (i know a lot of people would argue that it is more than the prescribed size but similar sized tyres are working fine on my friend's Swift , i20 and Polo without any troubles) and gets really tight at parking speeds and just stops working when you make 5 or 6 constant U turns (which one usually does'nt but when i was teaching my sister to drive she happened to make a few such turns and within 15 minutes the power steering stopped working , must have been overheated)

And then the ultimate cost cutting in form of the average iDTEC engine from Amaze when the then segment leader Verna had Variable Geometry Turbo and more power , everyone expected them to use the 1.6 version but they just went the easy and cheap way!

So while in short term they must be making healthy profits on the City but the unexciting new models (again a result of not spending enough R&D like Mobilio and BR-V and re using stuff from older and cheaper cars) resulted in well deserved market duds , with 1st gen City and a Civic that have served our family , they have lost an old and loyal customer.
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