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Old 12th November 2006, 00:32   #31
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Originally Posted by iraghava

1. Does it have a good engine? NO
2. Does it have a good gearbox? NO
3. Are the NVH levels acceptable? NO
4. Is it a pleasure to drive? NO
5. Is it a quality product? NO
6. Does it have good interiors? NO
7. Is it a great handler? NO
8. Is it a reliable product? NO
What is the bench mark are you comparing with??? It could be your judgement and i respect that. But TATA doesnt intend to sell the product to a niche customer like you. At the current price point, market feels that it is the best package available and you cant deny that.
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Old 12th November 2006, 00:50   #32
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Benchmark is any 4-wheeled automobile as we know it. If asking for quality makes us a niche customer, hmmm.

I know a guy that got married and got an Indica as part of his .. Well, let's say his FIL gifted him that. And this guy drove (actually tried to drive) his Indica from Kerala to Kalpakkam (where he works) and guess what ? Half way, he is in the dumps. In a new car... In the middle of nowhere with his new bride. Not a good way to bring your bride home, I would say.

A teeny-weeny M800 would have seen him through, maybe with lesser headroom. But atleast safe at home.

Edit : I have done that Kerala - Chennai drive many times in my 20-yr old M800, my 7-yr old M800 Dx and my Baleno, without worrying anytime about being held up someplace.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 12th November 2006 at 01:08.
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Old 12th November 2006, 01:24   #33
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TATA have always come out with what i would say suit India and Indian roads,when indica was to be released mr Ratan Tata said they would bring out a product as small as a zen,spacious as an ambassador,which would cost equivenent to a small car and a diesel!!!they kept their word,and fair enough indica sales have never looked back and has always stayed in top three,
even earlier when safari came the kind of equipment and comfort the vehicle gave is even today a benchmark in its segment,

when 207,sierra,estate and sumo came when it did it was a market novelty..TATA bought out products even today people no matter what fancy names they carry would think twice for this market,

buttt the above said was conceptualised and executed by indian engineering stalwarts like shri sumant moolgaonkar(to whose memory his brainchild sumo has been named thus su for sumant and mo for moolgaonkar)and V.sumantran the architect behind TATAs other best seller's,

and where unfortunately we are discussing here is the QUALITY which has overcast the true recognition of true Indian exuded by their products are the original culprits for which TATA has no excuse for instance a automobile company with fledgling quality levels require a engineering competence of mr V sumantran's levels and not an ex hindustan lever's marketing whiz-kid(mr ravi kant)

reasults:advertising blitzkrieg and massive reduction in purchases of parts hence price cuts,hence more sales,hence........deteriorated(even still!!)quality levels,

mercedes and nissan also have marketing whiz kids and its showing in their products(w124 to present models)and(skylines to present nissans)but their products as i quote when the new benz replacing w124 came was 'the present benz has about 110% over-engineering compared to 124 which feels like atleast 300% or 30 years on indian roads"
now these people can afford cost cutting and such stuff not ones manufacturing under engineered products,

the worst part is inspite of competing agianst their international rivals with what is basicaly a sound product TATA rests on its initial effort and do not follow up enough to raise the bar and to ALSO improve on areas like fit and finish,improvisation of parts used,etc,wherein companies like toyota manage brilliant results with locally made parts and vendors,

and i would finally say that patriotism is what gives us a certain level of patience and understanding atleast after we buy the car because when their 4th generation vehicles(indica4spd,5spd,v2,v2 03 and turbo)safari(98,2000,2001,2003 and dicor),indigo(initial and tdi so far) sumo(endless)
finally come out right long time TATA customers proudly look back and say MORE THAN TATA WE CONTRIBUTED TO THIS PRODUCT...........

Last edited by dr fate : 12th November 2006 at 01:28.
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Old 12th November 2006, 01:48   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Edit : I have done that Kerala - Chennai drive many times in my 20-yr old M800, my 7-yr old M800 Dx and my Baleno, without worrying anytime about being held up someplace.
I had an indica that ran for 60000 kms. i never had to crank the engine twice to start... had done number of trips to bangalore, trivandrum,kutralam... never had problem of any sort... does that mean indica is bullet proof in terms of reliability... no. can we take such extreme cases and come to a conclusion.

if there had been so many quality issues with tata, as it is made out to be, we would never be seeing so many cars on road, or it can be inferred that for the price it is being sold, customers are happy with the quality.

i would like to reiterate that market is always right. we should respect the collective intelligence of the market and in the current context, tata's sales numbers are testimony to the fact that they have a very good product at the current prices.
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Old 12th November 2006, 01:49   #35
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I have always respected TATA for what they have done to the Indian automotive industry. They have ever since the launch of the Indica been trying something good and have very rightfully understood the needs of an 'aam' Indian. We should accept the fact that their target customers are not auto-enthusiasts, but millions of others for whom a car is something more about practicality than sheer passion. They have been very unpredictable too, and you either hate them or love them, but give them some time, they will certainly make us proud.
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Old 12th November 2006, 02:02   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a fool" - Samuel Johnson
I dont quite agree with Samuel Johnson - it isnt the gospel just because someone said so. If people believed this about a century ago, we'd still be subjects of the Queen of England. I'm glad they didnt hear of Samuel Johnson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat
Supporting Tata because it is indian is not the best thing - look at Proton in Malaysia, it is lagging badly. Encouraging Tata to be competitive is the key thing to do.
Proton is a bad example. Proton is what Malaysians were FORCED to buy as there was no alternative - any foreign import was slapped with a 240% duty at one time, which went down to about 150% when I was around there. So people had no choice but to buy Proton - this is not the case with Tata, who have had to fight it out with foreign manufacturers who were - in most cases - already manufacturing cars in India before they started.


Tata, on the other hand, tried to give the people of India a car that was suited for THEIR needs. A car that could take five ghee-fed people, a car who's doors would open wide enough to let our saree clad ladies get into it in a more dignified manner, a car that would be ECONOMICAL to run since we're not a very rich country, a car that could be serviced by mechanics anywhere, a car that could be heavily overloaded and abused and still carry on - even if with a few squeaks and rattles.

They did that with the Indica - despite the fact that they had a steep learning curve being primarily a manufacturer of modified World War 2 trucks (1210 series).

They did not make the car for boy racers. They did not make it for those who consider their car to be a statement of their position in society. They did not make this car for burra sahibs who are always talking about the cars 'back in Europe where they build them right' as though they'd always lived there. They did not make it for people who were lone drivers of fancy cars that were more bothered about how quiet the car was or how well the stereo sounded in their air-conditioned interiors - they made it for those who wanted to rough it out.

The fact that this car has continued to be a bestseller despite the hordes of people who predicted its doom, despite all those europhiles who call it the Junkica, despite all the reverse racism that can only be found in this country is a testement to the fact that it has done its job.

And to me a company that is able to achieve what it set out to do - despite all the hurdles mentioned above - is a company that one can be proud of.

Last edited by Steeroid : 12th November 2006 at 02:13.
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Old 12th November 2006, 02:43   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
They did not make the car for boy racers. They did not make it for those who consider their car to be a statement of their position in society. They did not make this car for burra sahibs who are always talking about the cars 'back in Europe where they build them right' as though they'd always lived there. They did not make it for people who were lone drivers of fancy cars that were more bothered about how quiet the car was or how well the stereo sounded in their air-conditioned interiors - they made it for those who wanted to rough it out.
Steeroid, the Safari has been positioned as a lifestyle performance vehicle, which is a statement of your position in society (reclaim your life).

The Indigo is being positioned as a refined luxury saloon (compared to Mont Blanc and designer sunglasses if the ad is to be believed).

The Indica turbo ad is also positioned as a performance vehicle (old uncle gone fishing gets water splashed on him by passing Indica).
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Old 12th November 2006, 02:45   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iraghava
1. Does it have a good engine? NO
2. Does it have a good gearbox? NO
3. Are the NVH levels acceptable? NO
4. Is it a pleasure to drive? NO
5. Is it a quality product? NO
6. Does it have good interiors? NO
7. Is it a great handler? NO
8. Is it a reliable product? NO
What about price?
What about fuel efficiency?
What about sales?
What about the after sale service? (it has been a very good experince atleast for me.)

Last edited by Stratos : 12th November 2006 at 02:47.
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Old 12th November 2006, 04:00   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratos
What about price?
What about fuel efficiency?
What about the after sale service? (it has been a very good experince atleast for me.)
So in your opinion just because it's cheap & has decent fuel efficiency I should forego all the standards demanded from a modern car? Honestly I would be better off spending slightly more on getting a Santro because it offers so much more in the same package & is not a chore to drive around. But again this is IN MY OWN OPINION.

As for after sales well Stratos I've heard more bad experiences than good ones. I've been witness to one debacle where a very close friend's father bought a Gen I Indica on a premium of 60,000 rupees & boy did he regret it!! So much so the poor man won't touch diesels or TATA's with a 20-ft barge pole now!! It had every conceievable problem that a car can have & more.

What has been my pet peeve is that TATA has constantly put out products in the market which are under-developed & they know it. It's almost as if they want the consumer to do the R&D for them, as can be seen latest in the case of the Dicor's & the subsequent recalls/updates. Yes they might be prompt in fixing faults but that does not absolve them of the repeated blunder of releasing unfinished cars in the market. And why we people tolerate this is beyond me at times. On one hand they claim to be world standard car makers & on the other hand they skip on R&D, not done is what I think.

And just for the record the Safari was reviewed by CAR magazine (UK) when it was launched in that market some years ago. I have that issue lying around with me & it clearly states that there was a debate in their office after driving the car that whether a car could be awarded no stars out of 5 (Turns out they couldn't) and then they gave it a half star which was the lowest they could go. What they thought of it as a product was amply clear in that small article.

You know TATA can keep playing this game of being cheap & diesel powered but frankly once other players come into this market they're gonna have to pull up their socks, fast.
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Old 12th November 2006, 04:17   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tifosikrishna
What is the bench mark are you comparing with??? It could be your judgement and i respect that. But TATA doesnt intend to sell the product to a niche customer like you. At the current price point, market feels that it is the best package available and you cant deny that.
Tifosi - Benchmark is any small car available in the market today. Take a Santro/WagonR whatever you want & compare the parameters that I listed out. I would be very surprised if you would rate the Indica better in any of them. And I'm not talking about myself but on a general informed consumer basis. (Hell when it comes to myself even Honda finds it tough to sell a car to me!!)

I recently drove a new Indigo SX (bought by a friend) and was apalled at the NVH levels. While in traffic standing idle there was so much engine noise even above the Stereo that I had to switch off the engine otherwise I would have gone crazy. The engine, gearbox, steering, driving dynamics etc. were also highly disappointing even if you compare the car to something like an Esteem which as we all know is an OLD product. While the taxi sector might not mind that due to the low-cost & diesel power but as an individual customer looking to spend 5-6 lakhs I could do better with an Esteem/Accent/Ikon.

And actually there's no question of price point, Indica is the only diesel hatchback today and so it sells depite all the shortcomings. I don't consider the Palio a contender due to Fiat's own problems & higher price point. But my opinion is that once the Swift/Getz diesels are here the more demanding customers are going to shift from Indica's in droves despite the higher cost.

Don't misunderstand me people I'm not against TATA but I don't see why under the garb of patriotism I should buy a sub-standard product with my hard earned money.
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Old 12th November 2006, 05:21   #41
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well to give another experience,my brother till date regrets buying an indica....after three yrs of paying installments he literally weeps cos he has to put up with the indica for another three years before he can change it.the engine caught fire while stuck in a traffic jam,the silencer rusted and fell off while the car was being driven...now these are things which you cant even predict will go wrong....
agreed tata has a done a lot and has graduated from being a truck manufacturer to a passenger car manufacturer in a very short span of tim.but that doesnt mean that its all good.the sales are high becuse the taxi/bpo market is fuelling it as they have no other choices or alternatives in that segment.they can live with it because they buy in bulk and one or two cars being faulty can be overlooked but for an individual buyer who is spending his hard earned cash on the one car that he is going to own for the next 5-6 years,tata is not a good choice.and it isnt exactly cheap either.you cannot judge the quality of a car by its sales numbers.in that case a baleno,palio should have been selling in huge numbers.
TATA is still in the infant stage and it will be another 5 yrs before they start churning out good quality cars.
i would be patriotic about bajaj because they are making very good bikes in all the segments,be it commuter or performance segments.but i wouldnt be patriotic about tata.
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Old 12th November 2006, 08:29   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iraghava
I recently drove a new Indigo SX (bought by a friend) and was apalled at the NVH levels. While in traffic standing idle there was so much engine noise even above the Stereo that I had to switch off the engine otherwise I would have gone crazy. The engine, gearbox, steering, driving dynamics etc. were also highly disappointing even if you compare the car to something like an Esteem which as we all know is an OLD product. While the taxi sector might not mind that due to the low-cost & diesel power but as an individual customer looking to spend 5-6 lakhs I could do better with an Esteem/Accent/Ikon.

And actually there's no question of price point, Indica is the only diesel hatchback today and so it sells depite all the shortcomings. I don't consider the Palio a contender due to Fiat's own problems & higher price point. But my opinion is that once the Swift/Getz diesels are here the more demanding customers are going to shift from Indica's in droves despite the higher cost.

Don't misunderstand me people I'm not against TATA but I don't see why under the garb of patriotism I should buy a sub-standard product with my hard earned money.
Why are u comparting the NVH levels of a diesel Indigo (SX) with an Esteem/Accent/Ikon?
Esteem D was a relatively poor vehicle and i wonder if it is sold now. Accent CRDi is much more expensive. Ikon 1.8D is definintely outdated.

What if u tell you Fiat's new 1.3 Multijet Diesel might also become a part of Indica due to the Tata-Fiat alliance? Anyway Swift Diesel and Palio Diesel can never match the killer prices of the Indica.
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Old 12th November 2006, 08:57   #43
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I would reckon objectiviely that the collective drift here leans towards anti-TATA. And while TATA cars/A.S.S. are quite some distance away from the refinement/maturity levels of Maruti/Hyundai, one must not neglect the contribution of TATA cars to the economically-frugal mass mobilization of Indian families in safety. And TATA is Indian, with lot of their R&D efforts borne in-house. So yes, I continue to be proud of TATA.
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Old 12th November 2006, 09:53   #44
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Originally Posted by salilpawar1

You answer ur problems and complaints in ur P.S.
How does the Indica Turbo having good power delivery answer my complaints about TATAs inconsistent quality?

Last edited by DCEite : 12th November 2006 at 10:01.
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Old 12th November 2006, 11:26   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
I know a guy that got married and got an Indica as part of his .. Well, let's say his FIL gifted him that. And this guy drove (actually tried to drive) his Indica from Kerala to Kalpakkam (where he works) and guess what ? Half way, he is in the dumps. In a new car... In the middle of nowhere with his new bride. .
Ummm, any babies yet?
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