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Old 13th November 2006, 14:58   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esteem_lover
before they could perfect the Indica, they have started on a 1 lakh car, isn't that something ? when will that be perfected ? when it becomes 5 lakhs ?
I guess, they will never do it. Maybe they know that instead of manufacturing one masterpiece and invest huge efforts and money its better to roll out five crappy products. Its India, we are Indians and so are they. For Indians, as long as its running, its perfect. Sab chalta hai boss...
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Old 13th November 2006, 14:59   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salilpawar1
The thing is that that Tata doesn't do excessive marketing about each and every upgrade. How many of us remember Tata making an ad of their major upgrade of the Indica in 2002 (this was made after the V2 was launched) where they made major changes in the suspension, brakes, structural strenghtening and so on. This is what Tata did in a country where car makers make a huge hype even when they change the wheelcaps and spoilers.


The major Indica upgrade of 2002 was insisted upon by Rover before accepting the car for the UK market. Of course, the car failed miserably in UK in spite of that upgrade and Tata was forced to improve it further. However, Rover went bust before the introduction of the improved version and so we can only guess how the UK market would have responded to it. Some of the second round improvements were again passed on to Indica, viz. the new instrument cluster with twin digital trip meter.

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Old 13th November 2006, 16:25   #93
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Originally Posted by Zappo
All these crazy arguments about parts falling off. Car stalling in the middle of the road... welll... I find these ludicrous. Finally, if this parts falling off and car just stalling in the middle of the road so frequently had really been true (every one seems to have a ready anecdote) you would have seen a stalled IndiXX at every street corner, everyday going by the no. of cars they sell. So how many such cars do you see everyday?
I drive about 80 KMs every day on some of the most crowded roads in the country. I am a keen observer of all vehicles on the road, including those that break down (Actually, one observes broken down vehicles even more keenly since they often cause traffic jams).

Now, if I were to be asked the question "Which is the car that you see broken down on the road most often?", I wouldn't have to think much and my instant and unhesitant reply would be "Indica/Indigo", howsoever much I may hate giving this reply (I've been a Tata fan since childhood days).

True, one doesn't see a broken down Indica/Indigo at every street corner every day, but the frequency is high and disturbing enough to take note of and to form an opinion about the vehicle's quality and reliability.

Tata deserves appreciation for daring to develop its own vehicles even in days when its competitors simply waited for junk dies and machinery to arrive from their collaborators' factories. One can even pardon them for some glitches given that they're new to making passenger vehicles (Were'nt the Japanese once known as junk merchants?). However, the nature and frequency of problems in Tata cars is definitely on the higher side and Tata should make serious efforts to rectify that. Otherwise, it may be too late. The soon-to-be-launched Swift Diesel can do to the Indica what the Qualis had done to Sumo.

As an Indian and a Tata fan, I want Tata to succeed by producing world-class vehicles that are designed and not merely adapted for India (to borrow from their ad line) and sold at economical prices. I'm still hopeful they wouldn't disappoint.
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Old 13th November 2006, 20:17   #94
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considering my personal experiences with owning two tata cars . yes we are harsh on them but just bcoz i own them doesn't justify that . there are problems in cars as we have seen on our forum but personally i really think its too harsh on tata
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Old 13th November 2006, 23:15   #95
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I do not understand, if Indica/Indigo made by Tata are so unreliable, fall into pieces while driving on the road... how come more and more people buy it..!! Hmm!

I have never believed this nor will untill it happens to my own car. I have used my car in every smooth and rough way, nothing fell off till date. Same regarding the Indica V2 I once had. Now please do not say, "You have got a good piece dude".
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Old 14th November 2006, 00:00   #96
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ok ,guys

I am not going to quote individual posts as its really cumbersome ,but I will try to put forth my side /perspectives with regard to your points .

I own a 2006 march Indica and a 2006 maruti 800 which was bought in august this year.The indica is great on mileage,it gives me around 22 km/l on the highway .The car is done around 15000 kms .The Maruti on the other hand has done 18000 kms . The maruti gives me around 20 km/l when driven in 60 around 18 when driven in 100 and around 14 when driven in speeds excess of 120 km . I drive very hard ,my cars are the worst abused and also one of the best maintained cars .The vehicle which I learnt driving was in buses and trucks ,so naturally any car which I drive is driven like a truck rather than a car . I do a lot of highways basically ,almost every month I do a trip from chennai to vja ,chennai to hyd chennai to blore and may be the next week I might go to Kerala .

The Indica has had around 3 services and the maruti has never been serviced ,I just keep chaning the oil ,filters myself . I dont use exotic oils just use oils meant for trucks and oil service intervals are around 7000-10000 for the maruti . The service intervals for the indica is 4500-5000 and I get this done at a Tata authorised service station .
Till date the problems encountered with the indica were ,the brakes wouldnt work ,the Ac seems to be working with a mind of its own ,the suspension is stupid ,at each corner the car bottoms out ,the valves had to be reset for timing ,and after the reset job oil still leaks ,I had to book my service in advance by a week to get the car serviced and it takes an awful 2-3 days for the service - the service was done by concorde motors and I had paid around 3000 and odd for the first service and subsequent services . Till date my FM never works with the antenna which was supplied by TATA .

Now the point is I do my highways on the Maruti rather than on my indica because I feelmuch more comfy driving ,peaceof mind ,I know when I apply my brakes the car will stop for sure ,when I try overtaking a vehicle I dont have to floor the pedal and wait for the car to overtake the vehicle .

Just because the Indica is heavier does not mean that it handles well ,if that had been the case then the Tata 407 should be less prone to accidents ,but its the opp . why is that so ?

There is a lot more to car engineering than adding weight ,we arent buying Tata steel for sure ,we are buying Tata car I guess . Take the case of safari - I think it weighs close to 2000 kgs or more ,even thats all right ,but what about the refinements ?when ever I open a safari door ,all that I can see is a set of seats straight down from a bus ,you can see metal sheets everywhere under the seats ,supposedly the frame of the seat ,cant the sheet metal be formed into a shape so that the structural strenght of the metal is better and the weight of the sheet is reduced ?same is the case with mahindra .

I had to bring in other entities of Tata as I thought the argument was with regard to a brand name ,and I think its wise enough to argue about a group which is in question . Everything boils down to the management and I think both the entities have something in common .

Why do i dislike TVS ?
I used to own trucks ,buses ,transports and all these culminated exp of dealing with TVS and also cheap marketing gimmicks /tatocs employed by TVS .
As someone pointed out in the discussion ,TVS girling brakes dont stop ,LOL my Maruti has KBX and they do stop and the best part is the KBX dont over heat or underperform when they get overheated at the high speeds that Ido .

VFM is a real tricky point to answer . For a cabbie ,his vehicle is his bread and butter . The cabbies are a seperate class of people believe me . They trust their mechanics much more than trust their own self . I have also seen this tendency with autorickshaw wallas . . At some point of time the majority of cabbies would have been an autorickshaw driver .

Has anyone bought a new vehicle and stripped the engine apart ?Well ,the autorickshaw drivers exactly do the same . Its supposed to be resetting of the engine ..well this might look like a horror story now ,but its true . Any autoricksaw driver will tell you that as soon as they take delivery of a vehicle they will take it straight to a mechanic who is a " guru " and would set his auto engine for 3,000 rupees .Similar thing used to be done on the ambassador ,I have seen people strip down an ambassador and reweld the body joints and repaint the car .I sometimes wonder if these class of people are rational atall .

The actual cost of .reassembling an auto engine at a Bajaj workshop is actually 600 rs at the max .

I am putting forth all these points here ,so that some of you might actually see that the 3000 rs which is spent on resetting the engine is VFM for the auto driver as he is of the opinion that the auto would last atleast another 2 yrs without any probs . He knows his warranty is void and Bajaj actually is minting money with these autos . I actually doubt if any of the Bajaj delearships have actually serviced a passenger autorickshaw .

similar is the case of Indica - The car is primitive and the local mechanic knows that its another Tata truck in disguise as a car and he knows that he can actually figure out how to service the car .
Take the case of Sumo and Qualis - The qualis dint sell well initially as it was kind of weird /odd looking vehicle for the indian public .

some of the points that I have raised might be with regard to chennai ,so kindly excuse me if such kind of things dont happen in your part of the country .

Well , I thinkthis post of mine might qualify as the longest ,so before you guys get bored ... jumping out for now ...hehe


The first round of buyers were taxi operators who were fed up with sumo and bought a qualis to try their luck . The Qualis enigne is expected to do its job for a minimum of 3 lkh kms where as the sumo engine did not have any minimum expected kms .My sumo engine went bust at 60000 kms . I think now the sumo comes with some kind of a minimum but I am not sure on this though . Today the Qualis is termed as a sucess because of the quality of engineering that went into the vehicle and the satisfaction of the owners who have bought a qualis .
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Old 14th November 2006, 00:18   #97
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Stratos, that is what I said... with a combined experience of 50k+ with two Tatas I can say fairly confidently that all this talk about parts falling off, car stalling even before it crosses the threshold of the showrooms etc is a lot of bunkum and mere hearsay.

Leave me aside, so many people who drive these cars everyday are every bit satisfied barring a counted few who probably had the bad luck of getting a real bad piece. But then that can happen with any other car as well. I refuse to believe that if there had been even an iota of truth in all these stories Tatas would have been forced to close shop by now. And I refuse to buy arguments like we indians have a "sab chalta hai attitude", "we are foolishly patriotic" and many such other crazy reasons to justify why people keep buying these cars even though the parts fall off and new cars fresh out of the showroom suffering engine siezures etc...

Please, give Indians some credit for their brains... No one spends big bucks (4lacs+ is for most Indians) on foolish faiths.

P.S. : I saw greatmana2000's post after I posted this... hence the PS. I can say only one thing to you dude... if your 6 months old Indica is showing all these problems that you are talking about then either you need to change service station or/and sue Tata. Do not sit and narrate. As a matter of fact my Indica is now 1.5 years old and has covered some 20000kms. It does not even rattle or squeak... leave aside those failed brakes, AC, suspension, leaking seals etc! Also, there is another one in my family that is even older and has 30000kms+ on the odo. This one travels places where they have laid roads around craters... The only fault it has (compared to mine) is that it has a higher NVH levels. Thats about it. So, pleaseeee....

Last edited by Zappo : 14th November 2006 at 00:31.
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Old 14th November 2006, 11:15   #98
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It looks like me, stratos,Zappo, tsk, garvit etc got "good pieces" (Am I lucky? I got two good pieces in a row over the last 6 years). Things shake and rumble, but do not fall off (atleast in my case). As for taking-it-on-the-highway part, I find that inspite of all its flaws, the Indigo is an excellent highway vehicle, probably the best in its price bracket.
Maybe you just got a bad piece greatmana. Happens on many cars. Look at the problems on the Swift.

Last edited by sajo : 14th November 2006 at 11:18.
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Old 14th November 2006, 11:18   #99
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"Please, give Indians some credit for their brains... No one spends big bucks (4lacs+ is for most Indians) on foolish faiths."

After spending 4+ lakhs do you think anyone would admit his folly ?Even if he is going to be dissatisfied he/she would probably be putting up a proud face ..lol
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Old 14th November 2006, 11:48   #100
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greatmana2000

I will take your post with a large helping of salt primarily because of my experiences with these cars.

2 of my friends own taxi businesses back in India (which I have an interest in as well) and between them they have close to 40 Indica and Indigos. Most of these have covered over 100,000 kms and a few have crossed 200,000. With an average mileage of about 50,000 between 40 cars, we're talking about 2 million kilometers of
hard usage with different passenger and luggage loads and varied terrain and roads.

Other than sundry issues like beadings coming off prematurely and the like, they have had exactly 7 VEHICLE BREAKDOWNS (in about 2 million kms) between them (not counting punctures, fused bulbs and other such issues attributable to wear and tear).

These guys swear by the Indica/go. It is their principal source of income and if the Indis had all the problems that people mention here - parts falling off, bad engine, bad interiors, bad suspension, bad electricals, bad everything - then these guys would be broke by now.

These are hardcore business people who make a living (a good one too!) by ferrying tourists - many of them foreign - around. Any breakdown would mean loss of future business for them. They are not running a Tata Motors benefit service to keep buying Indica/go year after year for the last 4 years. If these vehicles keep breaking down, our friends would've shifted to other cars a long time back.

The only crib is about the pickup on the Indica and the need to keep switching off the a/c when on full load to be able to overtake. The drivers keep cribbing about that on the Indica but they're more than happy with their Indigos. So my friends retired a few Indicas and replaced them with Turbo Indicas which the drivers are quite happy to drive.

Try telling them to run their taxi business with Maruti 800s or any other cars. Their other cars are Ikon Diesels (yuk) and a few Accent CRDis besides a couple of diesel Lancers and the usual Qualis / Sumo.
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Old 14th November 2006, 11:50   #101
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Hi!
my brother has indigo marina done some 25K in the last two years. it is first marina models without intercooler.it has done trips between bangalore-vizag(1150Km one way), bangalore tirumala thrice, bangalore-hampi-badami-aihole-pattadakal. we never faced a problem. infact between aihole-pattadakal there is no road at all. while coming from vizag on NH5 at 140KMPH( speedo reading. actual may 125-130Km) it jumped over a hump. nothing happened. it consistently gave around 17-18kmpl with AC on. only problem faced is while overtaking we have to switch off the AC. it is highly comfortable.
earlier i have posted in some thread that a ford stopped on the way between bangalore-chennai and suddenly burnt itself. the company was forced to pay compensation by courts. did we have any such case of indica/indigo suddenly stopping and burning itself?
similarly people are complaining that safari is getting so many retrofits. at least the company is giving retrofits to guys who bought the vehicle earlier. in this way it is passing on the benefits of improvement to earlier customers without charging them. what is wrong in that? compare this with Toyota. it it has not replaced the EGR valve to earlier customers. what about this? why don't people cribble about it? is it bec it is toyota.
similarly toyota recalled more than a million vehicles in other countries recently a year back. if toyota is selling such a high quality highly engineered products how come so many vehicles are recalled.
every where defects do happen. we indians have fascination for foreign products. anything foreign is better. look at sony how it looted people for outdated products.it was actually selling brand name not a good products.
there is no question of swift/getz beating indica. bec they never price their cars at the price of indica. at any time indica will be cheaper by min one lakh compared these.
further one has to compare indigo with accent crdi( not only engine, cost, NVH levels) not indica with maruti 800/santro/swift.
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Old 14th November 2006, 12:10   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dceite
Because bad word about a car doesnt come from someone who doesnt own it. It comes from someone who has owned it and lived with it.
Not sure if I agree with you on that one....just to use an example, 80% (or more) of the Ford bashing that goes on in this forum comes from people who have never owned or driven Fords but complain about bad a.s.s & exhorbitant maintenance costs based on "friends" & acquaintances experiences
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Old 14th November 2006, 12:21   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by directinjection
... Actually, one observes broken down vehicles even more keenly since they often cause traffic jams ...

... Now, if I were to be asked the question "Which is the car that you see broken down on the road most often?", I wouldn't have to think much and my instant and unhesitant reply would be "Indica/Indigo" ...

... True, one doesn't see a broken down Indica/Indigo at every street corner every day, but the frequency is high and disturbing enough to take note of and to form an opinion about the vehicle's quality and reliability ...
A coupla points:

1. Target customers & a damn savvy company.
Look at the target audience. Like I've mentioned earlier, it's a first time buyer / buyer on a budget who wants maximum car for his buck. A few problems don't matter to them. Since many are first time vehicle owners, they don't know / care about vehicle service intervals, etc.
Run out of fuel? "Gaadi kharaab ho gayee".
A/c not working? "Gaadi kharaab ho gayee".
Suspension making noise? "Gaadi kharaab ho gayee".
Lost an axle, broke your chassis & the car caught fire? "Gaadi kharaab ho gayee".

To illustrate my point & to make a generalization:
A few years ago, I was looking at selling my beloved 800 when a friend of my parents' offered to buy it for whatever price we asked. He'd never owned a car before & test drove it horribly. I then asked him if he had a garage in mind for maintenance, etc. & he said "all that is bull$hit - just drive it till it stops working. You don't need to maintain a fridge or an a/c, do you, so why get fussy with a car. Jab kharaab hi nahin hai, to repair kya karne ka?". Needless to add, I made sure he never saw my car again (& post my invective laden reply to that, he's not spoken to our family).

This example just goes to show that a majority of the buyers don't know / care much about even basic maintenance, forget mods or performance. How much does gas cost these days, & how much & how often do I have to put it in are the extent of their concerns. Hence, the probability of seeing a Tata product broken down on the road is much higher.

First time buyers were looking for used M800s. Today, they'll be looking for new Tata Indicas.

Also, read this Tata press release, which closes with "As far as you are concerned, just keep in mind that the Indigo is a bigger car at a lesser price. And as the experts pointed out, it is value for money! Very important when you consider the typical Indian mindset." [click here for the full article].

2. Throw metal.
In the minds of the majority of uninformed buyers, heavier is always better when it comes to vehicles.
Hence, why should Tata, Mahindra or anybody else spend good R&D time, money, & effort on developing lighter, better steels, when they can simply add more to the damn car & it'll be perceived as "ekdum solid". It's simple: Want rigidity, throw metal. Want solidity, throw metal. Bracket not supporting a subsystem? Throw metal. Save costs on R&D? Throw metal.

Tata, etc. aren't wrong - they're simply catering to their mass market demands.

3. Swift Diesel.
I wonder who's the bright spark who first suggested that the Swift Diesel would overtake the Indica/go in sales... Don't know their exact pricing figures, but Maruti are expected to launch the Swift diesel for around 4.5 lakhs or so. As compared to 3.3 lakhs for the Tata product. The pricing just can't compete for the base level diesel buyer. Also add in the factors of interior space, feeling of 'solidity', etc. etc. & you have clear favour with the Tata vehicles.

Also, Maruti labelled diesels are not perceived as very solid or good, & their interiors are known to get quite rattly with diesel engines. Yes, more so than the Indica/gos.

4. Disclaimer.
The above are generalizations / observations & a personal anecdote. Please don't flame / write back saying my Indica/go doesn't rattle, etc. or I'm biased, or whatever.

Last edited by elf : 14th November 2006 at 12:29.
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Old 14th November 2006, 12:29   #104
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Swift Kerb weight : 980kg
Indica Kerb weight(diesel) : 995kg

15kg extra for a car which is bigger. I dont understand where this overweight thing came from??
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Old 14th November 2006, 12:46   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkg
Hi!
my brother has indigo marina done some 25K in the last two years. it is first marina models without intercooler.it has done trips between bangalore-vizag(1150Km one way), bangalore tirumala thrice, bangalore-hampi-badami-aihole-pattadakal. we never faced a problem. infact between aihole-pattadakal there is no road at all. while coming from vizag on NH5 at 140KMPH( speedo reading. actual may 125-130Km) it jumped over a hump. nothing happened. it consistently gave around 17-18kmpl with AC on. only problem faced is while overtaking we have to switch off the AC. it is highly comfortable.
earlier i have posted in some thread that a ford stopped on the way between bangalore-chennai and suddenly burnt itself. the company was forced to pay compensation by courts. did we have any such case of indica/indigo suddenly stopping and burning itself?
similarly people are complaining that safari is getting so many retrofits. at least the company is giving retrofits to guys who bought the vehicle earlier. in this way it is passing on the benefits of improvement to earlier customers without charging them. what is wrong in that? compare this with Toyota. it it has not replaced the EGR valve to earlier customers. what about this? why don't people cribble about it? is it bec it is toyota.
similarly toyota recalled more than a million vehicles in other countries recently a year back. if toyota is selling such a high quality highly engineered products how come so many vehicles are recalled.
every where defects do happen. we indians have fascination for foreign products. anything foreign is better. look at sony how it looted people for outdated products.it was actually selling brand name not a good products.
there is no question of swift/getz beating indica. bec they never price their cars at the price of indica. at any time indica will be cheaper by min one lakh compared these.
further one has to compare indigo with accent crdi( not only engine, cost, NVH levels) not indica with maruti 800/santro/swift.
Very well said...... That is exactly what I am trying to say from the beginning. Don't use Indian manufacturers as punching bags for any miniscule issue and don't consider other manufacturers to be so gr8 that their blurps can be swept under the carpet.
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