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Old 9th August 2017, 16:12   #16
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

There is lot of development even in coal burning power plants. Staged combustion and catalytic cleaning of exhaust are some of the steps being adopted and it can clean upto 90% of NOx emissions. They need to tighten emission norms for Industries/energy plants which seems non-existent.

Regarding diesel vehicles, since the VW scandal deception from auto companies regarding their cars meeting pollution norms has come out in open. The emissions are twice as bad as in controlled environment. Moving to hybrid without diesel would be the best thing to do until we can produce non-polluting (relatively) electricity. Most premature deaths due to NOx pollution are reported in EU, China and India. They should atleast tax diesel automobiles out of market !
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Old 9th August 2017, 17:03   #17
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

I wonder if this decision has something to do with lobbying by Indian auto majors. Remember that Mahindra & Tata Motors have been working on pure EV technology for many years now.

If hybrids are subsidized, only foreign companies will benefit.

Last edited by smartcat : 9th August 2017 at 17:11.
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Old 10th August 2017, 10:17   #18
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
90% of India parks on the street - where are they going to charge their EVs, if EV charging stations aren't as common place as petrol pumps? The government is putting the cart ahead of the horse!
Thanks to a Team-BHP Fan (who prefers to stay anonymous) for sharing this:

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The directive from the Minister is to install over 200 charging points across Delhi in the next year or so. NTPC has already started doing so in their office complex.
Related Thread (State-owned NTPC enters electric vehicle charging business)
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Old 10th August 2017, 10:33   #19
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

As usual very short sighted. We assume of course that they are being foolish. For all you know they are pandering to select interest groups who have a real immediate threat from hybrids but electric is far away enough for them to deal with suitably. I just don't know anymore.

Divorced of the politics and bureaucracy of it all:

1. Its not like electricity supply is hunky dory in our country - both in terms of cost and access. To have 2030 ambitions of full electric is a bit unrealistic with or without a stop gap. Incentivise hybrids today - the tech and products are available from the word go. You can save fuel and the environment with immediate effect.
2. Even if full electric is the ultimate ambition, a hybrid is a great complimentary approach.
3. You can always announce a roadmap to conversion by saying hybrids get benefits immediately and electrics over a phased period to achieve the end goal of cleaner tech.
4. Significant infrastructure changes will be required for full electric. To my mind, its simply not practical enough at the scale for our country as a standalone option. Proper hybrids are much more convenient as an immediate (un)plug and play solution.
5. If they do provide Hybrids some benefits they should define "hybrids" carefully to ensure it goes to proper Camry, Prius, Lexus like hybrids and not the Maruti / Mahindra SVHS type sham options.
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Old 10th August 2017, 10:46   #20
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Received a press release. Among other things, the Minister of State for Power, Coal, New and Renewable Energy & Mines had this to say

... Hybrid cars perform their BEST in exactly our bumper-to-bumper city driving conditions where they can do the low speed commute majorly in EV mode (hybrid gains aren't as much on the highway). A car that delivers 15 kmpl could easily become a 25 kmpl car with a good hybrid system. Owners of the latest Prius report 50 - 55 mpg in the city (21 - 23 kmpl). Imagine the FE of a small hatchback! A 30 kmpl Alto? It's a possibility...
Very true. Can someone educate the minister in this regard? I've heard they are pretty active on twitter (last month we got one of the sports related ministers to actually act based on a twitter post one of us had put).

GTO, you may want to post this on Piyush Goyal's or his ministry's twitter page (though do it a bit softly and not in a manner that exposes his ignorance, if we wish to hold on to a hope that it'll have an effect!). Maybe cite some references, etc. And add some pleasing/maska-like words to the effect that "it would be his legacy that he'd leave behind, and he'd be forever remembered in the annals of history, if he gives a giant boost to hybrids", which, as you say, are precisely suited for Indian stop-and-go city traffic.
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Old 10th August 2017, 20:02   #21
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

http://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?z...591&action=bt3

To find emissions for various cars based on the region where one lives.
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Old 11th August 2017, 02:22   #22
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

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Remember that Mahindra & Tata Motors have been working on pure EV technology for many years now.
Even if this were lobbying. At 100 km/charge for the entry level e2o (the cheapest EV on sale), its at best used as a second car at home. For that, you need to spend 8L odd (on road Madras) which most of us wouldn't go for. Actually it is double the Bangalore OTR price the Reva sold in 2010

If you want the general public to buy, you either have to sell at a mouth watering price tag or give mouth watering tax benefits (like it happened with hybrids in US in the 2000s).

Besides, manufacturers like Volkswagen (eco Up) and Nissan (Leaf) have an EV on sale elsewhere. So its not out of their scope to introduce one when the market is ready for it.
---
Talking about electric vehicles in general. Wouldn't electric bikes make more sense? Bike numbers vastly outnumber cars on sale. I know they are on sale, but I hardly see any on road.
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Old 11th August 2017, 08:54   #23
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

Sigh. I was just discussing the same offline. Electric will take time as charging infrastructure is nowhere there to support electric vehicles. I was in Shanghai China a few weeks ago and was amazed to see so many Tesla's. The hotel which I stayed in had 2 charging stations (one from Tesla). It was sad to see in a way cause in Bangalore there are still powercuts daily. Every apartment or office relies on DG/UPS. So how will a electric car get charged if there's a powercut during summer?

Govt. should define hybrid standards. Do away with mild hybrids and only allow full hybrid vehicles with a min range that they can travel on electric power.

I would think they can look at Chevy Volt or the BMW i3 technology. The Chevy Volt is a hybrid but the gasoline engine doesn't really drive the wheels. The gasoline engine only supports the electric drivetrain. It can charge the batteries like a generator.

This is self sufficient technology whch doesn't need infrastructure. They should define such technology so manufacturers have a clear idea and work towards it. Pure electric is a much easier transition then.
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Old 11th August 2017, 10:59   #24
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Attachment 1665127
Received a press release. Among other things, the Minister of State for Power, Coal, New and Renewable Energy & Mines had this to say .
Frustrating indeed. However, I believe that the government is overreacting to prevent a situation similar to one where some companies used the tax benefits on hybrid cars in a wrong way, as quoted by some Bhpians below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
In the previous tax regime there was a concessional tax on hybrids, but manufacturers like Maruti and Mahindra made fraudulent products like the Ciaz SHVS to unduely claim tax advantage.
The government should have specified proper classification like plug in series hybrid with lowest tax, parallel hybrid with moderate tax, and kept the automatic start stop, and alternator isolation etc out of hybrid cassification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolFire View Post
With Maruti and Mahindra gunning for tax benefits with mild hybrids, think there is currently no one strong enough to lobby this matter with right intentions. Maybe Team BHPians can take a lead in spreading awareness.
I'll blame Maruti the most for coming up with contraption like SHVS and mild hybrid. As the leading manufacturer, this was a cheap gimmick to increase their sales. Such initiatives also cause other manufacturers to come up with more such excuses which will result in revenue loss for the without any improvement in their green initiatives.

The problem is that the term Hybrid has a lot of grey area and any amount of definition would throw up loopholes. Remember what happened when the government put ground clearance as a parameter to tax SUVs? Mahindra just added a piece of plastic to "lower" the XUV helping them gain tax benefits.

A good move from the government would be to use ARAI or an independent authority to test & certify a vehicle by measuring its green credentials and classify if the vehicle should get a tax break or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
I wonder if this decision has something to do with lobbying by Indian auto majors. Remember that Mahindra & Tata Motors have been working on pure EV technology for many years now.

If hybrids are subsidized, only foreign companies will benefit.
Not really as foreign companies like Tesla will benefit due to the EV only policy. I'd like to know the outcome of the discussion between Elon Musk and the government when he tweeted about tax challenges in manufacturing Tesla cars in India
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Old 11th August 2017, 13:14   #25
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

What the minister fails to understand is that a proper hybrid is basically an electric vehicle. It has an electric motor running on a battery and can travel a small distance in a purely electric mode at relatively low speeds. This distance and the top speed on pure electric mode keeps increasing with time. The original Toyota Prius (the first mass hybrid) could only run about 1 km at up to 30 kmph with a fully charged battery. The second generation, launched in 2004 (which I drove for over 8 years) can run about 3 kms at up to 60 kmph. The current generation Prius can do even better.

This is the exact same technology needed for all electric vehicles. Only by making hybrids popular, we would get cheaper and better batteries, cheaper electric motors and constant advancement in electric propulsion technology in India.
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Old 11th August 2017, 14:18   #26
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Attachment 1665127

Hybrid can be done today, and go mass market in 2 - 3 years. Electric cars are *at least* 10 years away from going mainstream.

Hybrid cars perform their BEST in exactly our bumper-to-bumper city driving conditions where they can do the low speed commute majorly in EV mode (hybrid gains aren't as much on the highway). A car that delivers 15 kmpl could easily become a 25 kmpl car with a good hybrid system. Owners of the latest Prius report 50 - 55 mpg in the city (21 - 23 kmpl). Imagine the FE of a small hatchback! A 30 kmpl Alto? It's a possibility.

[/url].
Even if govt taxes the Hybrids at same rate as electric vehicles (12%), they are not going to be mainstream in next 2-3 years. Not even in 10 years.

BHPians are only looking at the govt stand ignoring what is happening on the Hybrid front for the last few years before GST. Hybrids were taxed at the same rate as small cars (30%) for many years. That means an Camry Hybrid was taxed at 30% while regular Camry taxed at around 55%. Despite 25% tax advantage Hybrid Camry priced at Rs 5 lakhs more than regular Hybrid. So assuming extra cost for Hybrid power train and battery then Toyota should have passed the tax benefit to customers. But that never happened. Its even worse in case of Accord and other Hybrids.

Even more sad thing is none of these are really true Hybrids. Yes, you will get more mileage than normal cars but none of these actually run only on battery power. With Mild Hybrids it's even worse.

Another major point that we need to consider is, Hybrids were never really a major factor anywhere in the world. They have been in the market for decades but they are hardly a force in any country. Most companies develop these as compliance cars (to reduce total fleet emissions of companies in some markets as per regulations there).

All the traditional automakers invested billions in ICE technology (Internal Combustion Engines). Also, most of these companies only produce engines and drive trains. Most of the remaining components are sourced from third party companies. If they shift to electric the major part is battery which they dont want invest in. GM is sourcing batteries from LG instead of investing money in their own plants.

Having said all this, EV revolution whether in India or the rest of the world happens only because of the likes of Tesla, not because of these traditional automobile giants and their generosity towards planet earth. It will get accelerated by the upcoming emission regulations by European countries and the countries like China.

Coming to Indian market, EVs provide a great opportunity for the likes of Tata and Mahindra to break the Maruti's stronghold. Tata's Jaguar is releasing I-PACE all electric early next year (2018). They need to invest more into electric vehicles and bring the EVs to mass market cars. Mahindra need to do the same. Hyundai already has all electric ioniq in the market and its one of the most efficient EVs in the world. They are working on next gen ioniq with more range and Kona SUV.

India will move to EVs may be 3-4 years later than US or EU but its going to happen sooner. Hybrid could be a stop gap thing ideally, but if that was really the case it would have already happened much before GST.
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Old 11th August 2017, 15:34   #27
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

This policy needs to be set right- Maruti milked the policy and introcued Ciaz and Ertiga. Other manufacturers exploited loopholes too. Our cities are the best for Hybrids which can run on pure electric power. A lot of fuel is wasted in start-stop driving and idling in choked city roads and bottlenecks. If it weren't for our badly planned infrastructure, we would consume much lesser fuel with our small engines, but that's a topic for another thread.

We don't have enough electricity for all our houses (just look at the number of DG sets,) so electricity for cars is quite a while away. In the mean while, Hybrids can save a significant amount of fuel.

The government should define what kind of hybrid it is going to give the tax break to. In loose terms, I think a tax break can be given to a hybrid car which:

->Operates on pure electric power for 15 km: ARAI can develop a 5 test conditions so to minimize loopholes. (Remember the far from reality FE tests?) The car can be certified for a tax break if the average distance of all the test conditions are 15km with the minimum distance (amongst all test runs) is >=60% of the maximum distance (amongst all test runs.)

->Operates at a minimum speed of 25 kmph without the aid of an IC engine

->Operates all necessary ancillaries without a requirement to start the IC engine

^^Note that these numbers are not quoted with any scientific evidence behind them. If anyone here has done a lot of research on traffic patterns and their relation with FE, please enlighten us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Attachment 1665127
A car that delivers 15 kmpl could easily become a 25 kmpl car with a good hybrid system. Owners of the latest Prius report 50 - 55 mpg in the city (21 - 23 kmpl). Imagine the FE of a small hatchback! A 30 kmpl Alto? It's a possibility.
I'm not sure the gains will be to the same extent as the gains in the hybrid cars in USA with current technology. Our smaller cars are going to have a greater (greater % increase in weight) weight penalty when a Hybrid system is installed. I certainly think that the efficiency will increase, but 15kmpl will mostly not become 25kmpl in the first gen small hybrids.

Last edited by landcruiser123 : 11th August 2017 at 15:42.
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Old 11th August 2017, 19:41   #28
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

I for one would agree with the honorable minister

It was a few good years ago, maybe a decade or so - but a "Chevrolet Tahoe"; a MEGA sized SUV with a stonker of a V FRIGGIN 8 under the hood, did 20 something miles to the gallon IIRC - WON the "Green car of the year".

Why?

It had a tiny battery that made it a hybrid

Car manufacturers today; at least in India are not really interested in making REAL hybrids, unless someone wants to explain to me how the likes of Ciaz and Scorpio are "true" hybrids. For the sake of benchmarking - A Prius is what I consider to be a real hybrid

We cant have the car makers sit pretty by exploiting a subsidy and not come up with the real deal.

I would like to end my rant with a beautiful quote borrowed from a Mr. Jeremy Clarkson, and I may be paraphrasing a bit : "I am going to put a tiny battery in the Hummer, call it a hybrid, run it around Piccadilly circus all day and not pay a penny towards the congestion tax"

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Old 12th August 2017, 10:51   #29
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

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I for one would agree with the honorable minister

Car manufacturers today; at least in India are not really interested in making REAL hybrids, unless someone wants to explain to me how the likes of Ciaz and Scorpio are "true" hybrids. For the sake of benchmarking - A Prius is what I consider to be a real hybrid

We cant have the car makers sit pretty by exploiting a subsidy and not come up with the real deal.

Toyota Camry for that matter has a hybrid option - manufactured in India.
Further there are Lexus models with hybrid specifications - for example ES 300h, RX 450h and RX 450h Sports - available in India as imported CBU. These vehicles are "true hybrids" as @Urban_Nomad pointed out. However, the government has made its intentions clear through indicators like hiking the taxes for hybrid vehicles.

Regards,

Samish
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Old 12th August 2017, 12:09   #30
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Default Re: Government not interested in promoting hybrid cars, says Minister for Power

I wonder, if like the answering machine, pager, dial-up connection, Walkman; Indians will again skip internal combustion engines and go straight to electric cars. Will, for a vast majority of Indians, an electric car will be their first purchase?

There are 35 million privately-owned cars in our country today. As with most other consumer products, we can never assume a one-to-one ownership ratio, so in probability, these 35 million cars are owned by around 22-23 million households. Will, in the next few decades, when we start approaching the per-capita ownership of cars similar to China, will already to be time to shift to total-electric? There around 300 million households in the country. Will the vast majority move from a two-wheeler, to a shiny electric car? Electric appliances have always benefited from economies of scale, a democratization of technology and faster miniaturization.

And the Indian consumer has always been spectacularly fast in absorbing technology. All one needs to do is to provide him with a value proposition.
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