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Old 18th August 2017, 21:19   #1
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Angry Actual driving emissions of i20 & XUV500 are much higher than BSIV limits

Real Driving Emissions of i20 and XUV 500 are much higher than BSIV limits.

The international Centre for Automotive Technology which is a division of NATIS, Govt. of India has recently conducted Real Driving Emission(RDE) testing of three in-use petrol/diesel vehicles for emission. The cars tested were i20 petrol, i20 Diesel and XUV500.

Results indicate
a) CO emissions of i20 petrol is 3.85 times of BSIV norms
b) NOx emissions of i20 Diesel is 3.88 times the BSIV norms
c) NOx emissions of XUV500 is 6.07 times the BSIV norms

The results :
Actual driving emissions of i20 & XUV500 are much higher than BSIV limits-rde-test.jpg

Entire Report: RDE test.pdf

Is India brewing up for a major Dieselgate?
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Old 19th August 2017, 10:11   #2
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Default Re: Actual driving emissions of i20 & XUV500 are much higher than BSIV limits

Thanks for sharing, DImPo! Moving your post out into a new thread.
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Old 19th August 2017, 12:14   #3
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Default Re: Actual driving emissions of i20 & XUV500 are much higher than BSIV limits

This is due to the demand for more & more power, and the manufacturers greed to exploit an engine without improving the exhaust technology in conjunction with the power output.

Back when I suggested TATA's MD to have cars with more power-output through re-programmable ECU's, he agreed with the perspective but the first concern he said was that Emission Standards cannot be compromised.

With these developments, if the Govt is actually serious about pollution, I guess Mahindra & Hyundai will have to recall & re-calibrate the ECU's to a lower state of tune so that the NOx emissions are cut. If I were to suggest M&M, I'd say they sort these emission concerns before they launch their MPV/MUV.
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Old 19th August 2017, 12:45   #4
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Default Re: Actual driving emissions of i20 & XUV500 are much higher than BSIV limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by DImPo View Post
Real Driving Emissions of i20 and XUV 500 are much higher than BSIV limits.

Is India brewing up for a major Dieselgate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrammarNazi View Post
This is due to the demand for more & more power, and the manufacturers greed to exploit an engine without improving the exhaust technology in conjunction with the power output... With these developments, if the Govt is actually serious about pollution, I guess Mahindra & Hyundai will have to recall & re-calibrate the ECU's to a lower state of tune so that the NOx emissions are cut. If I were to suggest M&M, I'd say they sort these emission concerns before they launch their MPV/MUV.
I don't mean any ill-will but I must say this is what happens by quoting information out of context and without broad understanding.

In my understanding :

1. RDE (Real Driving Emission) and Dieselgate are entirely different.

2. Dieselgate had a defeat device which changed the behaviour of engine to achieve the emission limits while on dyno by detecting the OBD connection. But when the vehicle was tested using near similar driving pattern off-the-dyno, the emissions were much higher.

3. The ICAT report clearly mentions that the testing was done in real-world driving conditions, which is not same as the driving pattern used on standard dyno test (MIDC).

4. Yes, the emissions (RDE) are much higher than the Standard Test Conditions (MIDC), but does that amount to cheating. No.

5. Should the Government modify the Standard Test conditions (MIDC) to co-relate with Real-world driving conditions ? Big Yes.

I bet every vehicle on road in India or elsewhere will show similar increase when its driven in real world conditions, quantum of such increase may vary. This is a in-line with decreased mileage in city traffic as compared to declared mileage as per standard test conditions. All this extra fuel burnt for lesser km travelled in resulting in higher emission values.

If my understanding is wrong, I am open to make ammends.
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Old 19th August 2017, 12:59   #5
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Default Re: Actual driving emissions of i20 & XUV500 are much higher than BSIV limits

Does this means the face-lift XUV with bumped up power to 170HP will score even worst in terms of BSIV NOx emissions norms.

Also it seems the whole business of ARAI certification is just a formality and plagued with corruption.
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Old 19th August 2017, 20:15   #6
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Default Re: Actual driving emissions of i20 & XUV500 are much higher than BSIV limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoNoob View Post
5. Should the Government modify the Standard Test conditions (MIDC) to co-relate with Real-world driving conditions ? Big Yes.

I bet every vehicle on road in India or elsewhere will show similar increase when its driven in real world conditions, quantum of such increase may vary. This is a in-line with decreased mileage in city traffic as compared to declared mileage as per standard test conditions. All this extra fuel burnt for lesser km travelled in resulting in higher emission values.

If my understanding is wrong, I am open to make ammends.
If the actual emission(RDE) could vary to such a high extent compared to Emissions under Standard Test Conditions, the Government should stipulate norms for RDE also. This report is compiled by a GOI agency/division. Hence, Govt of India should take note of the report and stipulate suitable norms and monitor the same.

Last edited by DImPo : 19th August 2017 at 20:16.
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Old 20th August 2017, 23:27   #7
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Default Re: Actual driving emissions of i20 & XUV500 are much higher than BSIV limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoNoob View Post
I bet every vehicle on road in India or elsewhere will show similar increase when its driven in real world conditions, quantum of such increase may vary.
I'm going to support your bet.

Much of this has to do with traffic, but a large contributor to this is also fuel quality. I understand that during ARAI emissions certification, manufacturers supply their own (unadulterated) fuel, which is specially sourced.
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Old 21st August 2017, 05:35   #8
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Default Re: Actual driving emissions of i20 & XUV500 are much higher than BSIV limits

Agree fully with the previous two posts. We have the lousiest infrastructure in the world, with average urban speeds of 20 kph or less in most cities. Expecting cars to emit the same as they do in test conditions in such high strain conditions is ridiculous. What can we do? Move to BS6 asap (and don't give manufacturers the out of making BS4 vehicles till the last day), encourage hybrids (which are a great technology for urban India) and transition to electric cars (but think about the charging infrastructure before doing that). Even Euro 6 cars won't meet Euro 4 Norma in Indian real world conditions
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Old 21st August 2017, 09:16   #9
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Default Re: Actual driving emissions of i20 & XUV500 are much higher than BSIV limits

Agree with what AutoNoob says. Probably the Government ought to come with clear limits for RDE and Standard test conditions. Here if it is done by a GoI organization itself then my question is, has this been done the first time? Also why were only these 3 vehicles tested and not others?

They also talk about lower FE by 20-25% but isnt that a known fact that the manufacturers give the FE under standard test conditions which is generally lower than real world conditions. So whats the whole point?
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Old 21st August 2017, 10:04   #10
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Default Re: Actual driving emissions of i20 & XUV500 are much higher than BSIV limits

One point we left out, is the widespread adulteration of fuel. This can really make a car go crazy in emissions.

The very fact that we have threads 'reliable petrol pumps in XYZ' says at all.

Remember Manjunath was murdered for trying to clamp down on the menace.
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Old 21st August 2017, 10:21   #11
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Default Re: Actual driving emissions of i20 & XUV500 are much higher than BSIV limits

Hopefully, the govt will put strict emission standards that would make it very expensive for car makers to build diesel vehicles. Our crawling traffic does contribute to higher levels of emission. But diesels are more prone to particulate emissions under harsh driving conditions.
Even using diesel for producing electricity at one point making use of its efficiency would trump the use of it in individual vehicles.
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