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Old 21st August 2017, 13:56   #16
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Default Re: Why do VW's partnerships with Indian brands keep falling through?

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LOL. Both are racists, the Germans just hide that these days.
I know what I am posting is OT, but this kind of generalized statement makes me cringe. Are all Germans and Japanese racists? Are majority? What percentage? Do we know for sure? Are we (Indians) above racism? Aren't we discriminating based on religion, cast and even region? So, why do we look down upon the Germans and Japanese and brand them as racists.

As far as the failing of proposed partnerships between VW and others is concerned, I don't think it is just attitude. I think they realized the lack of a business reason after they declared the intention.
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Old 21st August 2017, 14:11   #17
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Old 21st August 2017, 14:49   #18
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Default Re: Why do VW's partnerships with Indian brands keep falling through?

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Right, so I have a follow on question to this. When VW made the deal with Suzuki, they were presumably dealing with the Japanese HQ even though the ultimate goal was the Indian market, so was that a culture clash between the Germans and the Japanese?
VW considered only available market, they neglected the Suzuki culture, the fact that their respective cars are totally different in engineering. If they were looking at small cars, you cannot make a Suzuki feel like an UP and vice versa

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not sure if its a german thing - if tvs and bmw can pull off a successful joint product, why not VW? heck, VW runs a JV with SAIC in china for both manufacturing and product development
The rules were clear, BMW did most of the design, TVS did the value engineering. SAIC provided the market and the infrastructure, VW executed and enjoyed the volume. VW only own 30% in the SAIC JV

Last edited by GTO : 22nd August 2017 at 09:56. Reason: Quoted post deleted
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Old 21st August 2017, 16:03   #19
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Default Re: Why do VW's partnerships with Indian brands keep falling through?

I don't really feel it had anything to do with racism - lets please keep that aspect aside. Its a very vague term. Please remember that Mercedes had a very friendly and long standing partnership with Tata. Not many know that even Mercedes's cars in India were infact all painted at a very good Tata Motors' paintshop for 60 years. Just last year finally Mercedes opened their own high tech paintshop in Pune and ended this partnership. (So no wonder that Tata cars always have a good paint finish also!)

The real reason why this deal fell through was I think very very simple. It didn't really have a purpose at all. What were they looking at gaining? FIAT also had a similar thing in the past with Tata where they eventually unnecessarily blamed Tata for FIAT's own marketing & product failures. VW (and FIAT back then) is a large European player with global presence - who is failing to live up to its brand's potential and not able to get market share. I don't see how partnership with a large Indian car maker will assist in that at all.

I don't have much knowledge about what the deal was about so please forgive if I am incorrect in my thoughts.

Tata itself has lost a big chunk of share over last 2 decades & is fighting fiercely to claw back. How exactly will they "assist" VW? I don't think VW will ever be looking at making cars that will be cheaper than the POLO. Unless they do it - they are not going to knock on the average Indian buyer's door. This is something that Tata could assist with by working on a joint platform or something using shared technology. But I don't think VW wants to devalue their brand either buy bringing cheaper cars to India. They already sell their cheapest global cars at a premium here (compared to similar cars from other car makers).

Then the partnership's only goal possibly was to simply outsource spares & services to TML to reduce costs. Here perhaps VW wanted to squeeze too much on margin which TML didn't entertain. On the other hand this is also a bit of a gamble for VW. While VW's & Skoda's own service is neither cheap nor very transparent & reliable, officially partnering a brand like Tata who's own market image is somehow not good for after sales service would have been a negative weight.

Does anyone know what initial goals were set when the partnership was envisioned?

They should instead make use of a SMALL player for this purpose & nurture it. It will be very economical for them also. If I were VW, I'd talk to Premier automobiles instead. (Yeah the company still exists ) . They have good infrastructure that is hardly used & have a lot of growth potential also. They'll not talk too much in the partnership either. FORCE Motors would have been best but Mercedes would frown at that.

Last edited by Reinhard : 21st August 2017 at 16:12.
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Old 21st August 2017, 16:13   #20
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Default Re: Why do VW's partnerships with Indian brands keep falling through?

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Does anyone know what initial goals were set when the partnership was envisioned?
Here is the summary reported by the media on the envisaged partnership and its fall out.


1. Volkswagen wanted to use Tata’s advanced modular platform (AMP), which consolidates six platforms to just two and gives greater economy of scale to build cars and SUVs of different shapes and sizes, for products below its Polo hatchback in emerging markets.

2.Volkswagen also sought access to Tata’s supplier base to reduce costs.

3. Tata Motors, on the other hand, wanted an international opening with Skoda through co-branding of its jointly developed products.

4. But TATA's management was upset since there was no significant progress over the matter related to point 3.

5. In lieu of technologies in pedestrian safety and hybrid technology space, VW also wanted Tata Motors to share product attributes for emerging markets, especially at the foundation technology level, which has to do with ride and handling, electronics, etc. Tata Motors was reluctant to share the information.

6. VW realized that the investment that it would make in the Tata JV will be equal to what it invests on its own in MQB.

Link
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Old 22nd August 2017, 21:53   #21
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Default Re: Why do VW's partnerships with Indian brands keep falling through?

I think it has a very simple reason that most of us know.

The German way of engineering.

or rather the over-engineering. Even the most basic of the products VW makes, have a sense of quality without making it feel like any costs were cut. If they add a feature, it works better than anything else out there and thus, they will never be happy with a half hearted attempt at anything. They want a partner platform to be as good as their own before they put their label on it. Apart from their lack of localisation, there would definitely be a reason why MQB is turning out to be so expensive. They just don't compromise.

While I admire this way, VW does need to understand that an Asian buyer doesn't think the same way. VFM needs to be the USP of the most popular cars, but they are not ready to put that in first place. I hope our market evolves and VW can still offer us the top notch global products as they have strived to do before.

And as for the other brands, take Suzuki for example. There is no realistic possibility of Suzuki growing any further in India thanks to VW. They are big enough on their own. Even Tata was the one that would have helped VW, they don't stand to benefit much.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 04:51   #22
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Default Re: Why do VW's partnerships with Indian brands keep falling through?

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They want a partner platform to be as good as their own before they put their label on it. Apart from their lack of localisation, there would definitely be a reason why MQB is turning out to be so expensive. They just don't compromise.
It brings to mind a funny story from a motor show. Of Dr Ferdinand Piech with a whole retinue of top VAG execs with him being sat in a Hyundai, berating his own men about how the South Koreans were able to achieve admirable quality on what must've been a rather mundane part of the interior. No doubt there were some smug Hyundai execs watching on.

Just an amusing aside of course. Though from all the DSG threads I've read stories of the over engineered German Tiger tanks comes to mind vis-a-vis their more rudimentary Russian T-34 that won the day on the Eastern front.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 05:48   #23
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Default Re: Why do VW's partnerships with Indian brands keep falling through?

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Originally Posted by agambhandari View Post
I think it has a very simple reason that most of us know.

The German way of engineering.

or rather the over-engineering. Even the most basic of the products VW makes, have a sense of quality without making it feel like any costs were cut. If they add a feature, it works better than anything else out there and thus, they will never be happy with a half hearted attempt at anything. They want a partner platform to be as good as their own before they put their label on it. Apart from their lack of localisation, there would definitely be a reason why MQB is turning out to be so expensive. They just don't compromise.

While I admire this way, VW does need to understand that an Asian buyer doesn't think the same way. VFM needs to be the USP of the most popular cars, but they are not ready to put that in first place. I hope our market evolves and VW can still offer us the top notch global products as they have strived to do before.
I would go along with most points but I think you need to substitute 'Asian' with 'Indian'. Been reading that VW rules the roost in China. I therefore feel that our market (and maybe a few other Asian markets) have different needs and ideas.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 06:36   #24
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Default Re: Why do VW's partnerships with Indian brands keep falling through?

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Though from all the DSG threads I've read stories of the over engineered German Tiger tanks comes to mind vis-a-vis their more rudimentary Russian T-34 that won the day on the Eastern front.
Lol, good catch! When it worked, one Tiger could knock out a dozen Russians and look for more, but as soon as it broke down or fell foul of terrain being too wide and/or heavy as it often did, it became a sitting duck.
And the roads on the Eastern Front are a good comparison for many Indian roads - even the new ones that have all manners of speed breakers installed on them by all and sundry. So there is more to the analogy than being just an aside.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 12:08   #25
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Default Re: Why do VW's partnerships with Indian brands keep falling through?

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...
Just an amusing aside of course. Though from all the DSG threads I've read stories of the over engineered German Tiger tanks comes to mind vis-a-vis their more rudimentary Russian T-34 that won the day on the Eastern front.
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Lol, good catch! When it worked, one Tiger could knock out a dozen Russians and look for more, but as soon as it broke down or fell foul of terrain being too wide and/or heavy as it often did, it became a sitting duck.
And the roads on the Eastern Front are a good comparison for many Indian roads - even the new ones that have all manners of speed breakers installed on them by all and sundry. So there is more to the analogy than being just an aside.
. Sorry.
Absolutely. The Shermans & T-34s simply came in incomparable numbers while the Germans ran out of ammo.
While the "allies" eventually came out victorious, it does not mean they out-engineered the Germans. The Krauts are known for one thing. Excellent engineering. It becomes "over-engineered" because it is costly. It doesn't mean it is technically incorrect. They do the things the correct way without cutting corners. I'd rather the Jerries lost market in the developing countries but kept on sticking to their engineering principals of perfection and solidity.
(Ironically - thats the same I hope for Tata too. I like their heavy cars & I pray they keep making the tough ones. If cost cutting is to be done, I'd want a rock solid steel car with perhaps a plywood sheet instead of a dashboard & mango boxes for seats.)

The Germans are the last remaining ray of hope for fans and followers of real engineering that sticks with the hardcore, pure rules of metallurgy, physics & machine tools. Something that should never be ruled by microchips and fake tests of proving a 1mm steel sheet can be made as strong as a 4mm one. (Another irony here since VAG are the ones who played with microchips in pollution-gate !)

Last edited by Reinhard : 23rd August 2017 at 12:10.
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