Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 8th September 2017, 14:57   #31
BHPian
 
TorqueyTechie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 622
Thanked: 877 Times
Default Re: SIAM asks government to ban 15-year old cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
In a country where car penetration levels are at a dismal 30 - 40 / 1,000 citizens, it's ridiculous to think of banning 15 year old cars (for reference, some developed countries have 700 cars / 1,000 citizens). Even a 15 year old Maruti 800 can serve as a reliable source of transportation in poorly connected areas.
Well most of the developed countries has area larger than India with a lesser population. Some of them which dont have a better mass transport system. For reference, USA has more cars while UK/Japan/Singapore and such have better mass transport system.

For a populous country like ours with the current penetration level itself, the roads are choked. And the traffic is increasing more not only in major cities but also in Tier II cities. The noise that the SIAM is making as also the transport minister will definitely not happen soon and it may take good 20 years to take traction but I think it definitely is the need of the hour and the process should be started sooner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post

Everyone (or at least the majority) would agree we need more public transport and less private vehicle ownership, but nothing the government has done so far seems to indicate any serious efforts to that end.


P.S. Needless to mention, any such regulation will only affect private vehicle
ownership. Try banning polluting public/commercial vehicles and watch the drama unfold.
Agree on the government inaction. Its high time that they walk the talk. As someone earlier has mentioned it should start with the government itself. Reduce the fleet of cars travelling along with you, provide quality roads and mass transport.

Public vehicles might still be ok but problem will start when Autos, taxis and such are targeted. Along with strong unions , govt will be wary of elections as they are a considerable vote bank. Few years back there was talk of abolishing all autos which are more than 20 years old as they are causing more pollution. But in the end nothing happened.
TorqueyTechie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2017, 15:26   #32
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,071
Thanked: 634 Times
Default Re: SIAM asks government to ban 15-year old cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post


This requires a thread of its own, mostly. Minister making it extremely clear that their intention is to reduce car sales.

http://toi.in/XE_fuZ/a19li
Yes - and replacing the cars on the roads with what? Everywhere i look around when i commute for work, i see only 1 person in every car. And trust me, he is completely pissed off having to drive everyday. Mr. Gadkari is better off focusing on building efficient and effective public transport across India. Poeple won't need to use their cars at all. We have this metro craze now and when i look at what they are doing i can only feel . In pune, the metro does not go to Hinjawadi which is the largest IT hub! It goes from Airport side to Kothrud - for whom is it being built???

Pollution almost always is a by product of ineffective or lack of serious policy making and such knee jerk solutions only cause trouble to aam junta. This solution sounds like the demonetisation where I seriously doubt it brought any big-corrupt guy to his knees - only affected the small fry and aam junta for months!
Nilesh5417 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2017, 15:58   #33
BHPian
 
jalajprakash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Delhi
Posts: 170
Thanked: 418 Times
Default Re: SIAM asks government to ban 15-year old cars

My dad is already suspect of buying another used diesel daily due to all these talks of electric vehicles coming in soon, when in reality, electric vehicles just now are much too expensive to replace all personal transport and the electricity generated is much too unclean to really make an impact on pollution.

As many of our members residing in more developed countries have mentioned, to reduce the number of people who buy cars, one has to improve the public travel facilities to such a level where using public transport is almost effortless. Our country is far too ill-equipped in public transport for the government to threaten our personal vehicles.
jalajprakash is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2017, 16:47   #34
Senior - BHPian
 
dark.knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: India
Posts: 1,115
Thanked: 2,947 Times
Default Re: SIAM asks government to ban 15-year old cars

Time for enlightenment. Here's how lithium is mined :



This is a glorified look at the process, what they fail to mention is this :

1) Lithium is used an an antidepressant for bipolar disorders, lithium poisoning for normal minded people will lead to hallucinations and neural destruction.

2) Uses large quantities of water to dilute contaminants and further purify lithium. Water shortage is huge in lithium mines.

3) In Africa (Zim) children are used to mine for lithium leading to a cheaper process.. but utter destruction of the environment and the poor kids as well.

4) Strong chemicals are used in the process of leaching and require careful handling, otherwise they destroy the topography completely.

5) Recovery rate of lithium from used batteries is very less, leading to wastage and toxic displacement. Lithium shortage in a few years is a given.

https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas...t-green-think/

Ok, so they mine for lithium ion in places like Chile and Zimbabwe, doesn't bother us Indians, right? Wrong, its the same thinking that is suddenly leading to the end of oil and gas production after years of "they aren't directly harmful" press releases.

Que sera, sera.
dark.knight is offline   (8) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2017, 18:16   #35
BHPian
 
abhishek46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 924
Thanked: 1,675 Times
Default Re: SIAM asks government to ban 15-year old cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
Time for enlightenment. Here's how lithium is mined :
Excellent summary.

It is because of these problems in mining Lithium, that newer materials are being invented to replace it.

For example: nickel-zinc (Ni-Zn) batteries using 3D Zn sponge electrodes.
abhishek46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2017, 19:58   #36
Senior - BHPian
 
aaggoswami's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vadodara
Posts: 4,650
Thanked: 1,372 Times
Default Re: SIAM asks government to ban 15-year old cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvldvr View Post
Petrol, diesel cars to face music: Gadkari
http://toi.in/XE_fuZ/a19li
The future is uncertain for sure. For the manufaturers as well as the buyers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldice4u View Post
In my opinion, we should start recognizing that we just cannot keep adding cars to the system at the rate we are doing now. .....road rage ?

but definitely dis incentivize ownership of cars... the roads !
Truly uncertain times for manufacturers, but not that soon. Statement towards petrol and diesel cars is perplexing, and IMO, an irony in itself. First off, petrol and diesel are giving government a lot of revenue which is not likely to change in foreseeable future. A lot of employment is generated by Oil firms. So logically, the shift would not be that fast. Electricity cannot be, or rather isn't taxed as much as petrol and diesel are taxed (hope it remains this way).

SIAM's request for a ban is even more amusing. Correct me if I am wrong here, but I didn't read any constructive statements from SIAM when the "sold in India" cars failed in crash tests. Definitely I doubt SIAM's intentions towards such a ban; its there for sustained or higher volumes.

Electric cars, they are quite a while away and wont reduce the space crunch. Those who need cars will have one, albeit an electric one in place of petrol/diesel. There are other factors too, but I think there is separate thread for that. And how green are electric cars (Car rationing? Govt may introduce lottery system for buying petrol-diesel vehicles) is anybody's guess.

What Mr. Gadkari said could be true, but what are alternatives ? Try standing 10 mins. during summer months in Gujarat waiting for a bus/public transport and it will become clear why people buy cars. Am not against public transport system, but that isn't really practical atleast in its current state. And is the urban planning done keeping in mind public transport ? Buses plying on only a few routes wont help, if not 4-wheeler, 2-wheeler numbers will rise. Already the number of two wheelers are massive. And we haven't even touched the topic of cleanliness and safety expected out of public transport. Ahmedabad, for example, has BRTS and regular buses in place since long, but traffic has piled up, its frustrating to visit my grand parents sometimes just due to traffic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Even a 15 year old Maruti 800 can serve as a reliable source of transportation in poorly connected areas.
Very true. My father's friend has Maruti 800 which had major facelift, but its the one with carburetor. Easily 15+ years old. Serves him well, he has got hold of a good FNG who is able to tune the car well for running on both, petrol and CNG. Its utterly reliable, has never given him a breakdown till date.

Modern cars can survive and serve 15+ years.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 8th September 2017 at 20:00.
aaggoswami is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2017, 21:23   #37
Distinguished - BHPian
 
anjan_c2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: India
Posts: 5,498
Thanked: 4,558 Times
Default Re: SIAM asks government to ban 15-year old cars

The SIAM has used the opportunity to make a policy statement for the government to look into. This is a skewed statement by the Vinod K Dasari, President, SIAM, who is ill informed and being from the automobile industry he should know that even a two year old automobile can pollute the air worse than a 20 or 30 year old well maintained motor vehicle. This statement is solely to please his SIAM pals, who may be dreaming of massive expansion plans and very rosy balance sheets , once such scrapping commences.

It is better that the SIAM looks at other ways to increase their profits. The scrapping option is best forgotten, as it is only a pipe dream in a country like India. Many people who own older motor vehicles that will become liable for scrapping are from the lower, lower middle and middle classes who have spent a fortune in buying the automobile. Some are retired and may not be able to afford another new motor vehicle if the existing one is scrapped.

The government has already filed an appeal challenging the NGT order for the NCR ,saying that the provisions of the Motor Vehicles Act 1988 does not have provisions for scrapping a 15 year old motor vehicle without any reason. The motor vehicle has to be inspected by the designated authority. Even then de-registration is done in the rarest of rare cases. (MV Act, 1988 : life of a motor vehicle under section 59)

Some excerpts from the affidavit :

Quote:
NGT ban on 10-yr old diesel vehicles: Narendra Modi govt moves Supreme Court, says move could cripple auto sector
(Financial Express January 14, 2017)


The Centre on Friday moved the Supreme Court challenging the National Green Tribunal’s decision to deregister diesel vehicles that are older than 10 years and scrapping of such vehicles which are 15 years old.


It said that impact of the ban, which was imposed to curb air pollution in the National Capital Region, would be far-reaching and would effectively cripple the automobile industry, the largest constituent of the manufacturing sector and the fifth largest sector receiving foreign direct investment in the country.


A bench led by Justice MB Lokur asked attorney general Mukul Rohatgi to submit the status of a similar petition that was dismissed by the court last year. It said the government can’t have a “casual approach” in not apprising the court about dismissal of similar appeals.


Seeking stay on the NGT’s orders of July 18 and 20 last year, the government said that there is no point targeting the automobile sector.


The sector, it said, not only contributes 47% of the manufacturing GDP of the country but also employs over 30 million people and has a cumulative investment of Rs 1,42,000 crore and production of Rs 5,56,555 crore.


After the launch of the "Make in India" campaign, investment of around $5094 million has come into the country as equity inflows which is almost 8% of the total FDI equity inflow, it said, adding that the automobile industry also contributes about 18% of the total excise duty collections in the country.


The ministry also said that number of measures have been taken to address the rising pollution levels like the new models of four-wheelers manufactured from April 2020 will mandatorily meet the BS VI (Euro VI equivalent) emission norms. This will need more than Rs 36,000 crore of investment by oil companies and Rs 1 lakh crore of investment by the auto industry, it said.


Besides, the government is already contemplating and finalising various policies including a ‘scrapping policy’ for which it is now inviting suggestions as per the mandate of law.


Stating that NGT’s orders “are arbitrary and falls foul of the mandate of Article 14 of the Constitution and various statutes governing motor vehicles and other laws”, the ministry of heavy industries said that there is no scientific or rational basis for the impugned orders banning diesel vehicles. “On the contrary, various credible reports show that there is only a marginal contribution of 10-years-plus diesel vehicles. Statutory law and pollution under control (PUC) prescribe for fitness regime for vehicles and not based on age,” the appeal stated.


The impugned orders failed to consider that scientific literature does not show that diesel is worse off fuel than other fuels, it said, adding that it contributes minuscule proportion of pollution in NCR. On the contrary, diesel vehicles have higher fuel efficiency, therefore, would save over 1.5 million tonnes of CO2 emission a year, the petition stated.


Citing examples of Japan and European countries, which are actively promoting diesel vehicles for being less polluting, it said that “singling out diesel fuel for discriminatory treatment is arbitrary and unreasonable”. Besides, cutting short the economic utility of a legally permitted vehicle, the NGT order causes both national loss and personal loss of livelihood and freedom of choice to the vehicle owner, it added.
Gadkariji our e-proponent - e for electric and ethanol, must be in ill- informed about the Ministry of Heavy Industries affidavit on diesel vehicles.

Some more links here:

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/EBn...rold-dies.html

http://www.financialexpress.com/indi...sector/507603/

SIAM will do better thinking constructively and not destructively affecting the sentiments and well being of the common man.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 8th September 2017 at 21:32.
anjan_c2007 is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2017, 10:44   #38
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Arlington(TX)
Posts: 18
Thanked: 13 Times
Default Re: SIAM asks government to ban 15-year old cars

Its a case of vested interests. Manufacturers in India have had a very easy ride as far as upgrading towards cleaner technology for Petrol/Diesel engines is concerned. We are one of the very few countries in the world now, where we still don't have particulate filters on diesel vehicles(until 2020 at least). Banning older vehicles will only lead to an increase in revenue opportunities for these companies, weighing down heavily ultimately only on the common man.

Why not have alternate fuels such as Dimethyl Ether(DME) for diesels? Much easier in terms of technology adaptation and requires extremely less capital investment. A lot of similar fuels are carbon neutral as opposed to the environmental resource intensive electric vehicle battery production.

I do not really understand the scaremongering against Diesel.
We are a country where much more basic issues such as basic road infrastructure and discipline not in place yet and here these guys are trying to fast forward themselves to the likes of developed countries.

Diesel saw huge comeback in 2010 because it seemed to be the only possible way for a lot of countries to lowering their CO2 emissions. True that Nitrous Oxides are a problem with diesels but there is readily available technology to take care of it along with PM and HC emissions. 40 plus percentage thermal efficiency in case of Diesel, and these guys are trying to push it away only when making it cleaner is much less taxing than literally trying to reinvent the wheel.

The administration in our country seems to have slept over upgrading the emissions standards for a long time until the situation totally spun out of control. The commercial vehicle fleet in India is in shambles w.r.t road safety and emissions, giving out such sweeping knee-jerk statements will only create problems for not only the industry but also the end users
nilaykmrsr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th September 2017, 08:22   #39
BHPian
 
coldice4u's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Delhi
Posts: 154
Thanked: 85 Times
Default Re: SIAM asks government to ban 15-year old cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intelsingh View Post
It's a catch 22 situation!

Public transport even in a place like Delhi takes more time than driving would. .
And why do you think public transport takes so much time? Did it always take so much time. I remember going to college 10-12 years back in buses covering distance that take about an hour and a half today which used to take 30-45 mins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intelsingh View Post
Civic sense. Can we have orientation programs for those so that people realize basic etiquette of being on the road?
Isnt that too much wishful thinking ? Wherein everybody has not just driving but general etiquettes ? That would be pretty utopian ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intelsingh View Post
Second would be taking good care of your vehicles. Even if it is a two wheeler. In a free country, we are being told to abandon our freedom for corporate anarchy while they (read the government) could do better with a stronger hand in dealing with situations that still make the country feel third world.
A stronger hand, absolutely yes ! That's whats needed, to do the needful and whats the need of the hour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
First of all, government cannot and must not have the right to ban ownership of a personal mode of transport. Its simply not ethical to say the least.
Talking about removing an existing mode of transport before providing a realistically usable mode as alternative - is exactly how many other things in this country happen. And its not right.
The talk of too many cars resulting in no space for buses is absolutely incorrect sorry.
I guess we have moved beyond ethics on this issue a long way back. Ethically, you should not even have a polluting car on the road ! This has turned to necessity as far as me goes. Sorry if I sound a bit hardcore and my opinions differ from you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
What you have quoted are reasons why you should have a car, these are problems, but do you really think more cars on the road is an answer to these and other such issues ?
And is it fair to expect the government to solve all the problems ? How can public transport work if they cant move at good speeds ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
So - no, public transport MUST not improve, people MUST get stuck in traffic jams for at least 1 hour daily.
Isnt that a bit pessimistic ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
What Mr. Gadkari said could be true, but what are alternatives ? Try standing 10 mins. during summer months in Gujarat waiting for a bus/public transport and it will become clear why people buy cars. Am not against public transport system, but that isn't really practical atleast in its current state. And is the urban planning done keeping in mind public transport ? Buses plying on only a few routes wont help, if not 4-wheeler, 2-wheeler numbers will rise. Already the number of two wheelers are massive. And we haven't even touched the topic of cleanliness and safety expected out of public transport. Ahmedabad, for example, has BRTS and regular buses in place since long, but traffic has piled up, its frustrating to visit my grand parents sometimes just due to traffic.
So its a a classical chicken and egg problem. Public transport will alwqys be slow and rickety as we have too many personal vehicles on the road, nad people dont use public transport as they are slow and rickety.
But we have to make a start somewhere? Take cars off roads and improve public transport ?

Meanwhile in China
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapo.../#78f6fd9551b7

And as always, China will take the lead on this and leave us way behind. And why are they able to take such decisions that might be unpopular but are right ? As we have seen in India so often, just because its popular, doesn't mean its right !
coldice4u is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 12th September 2017, 08:56   #40
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 441
Thanked: 187 Times
Default

It's pure play lobbying to extract more from market. Force people to abandon their old cars and buy new ones , increase sales and make huge profits out of tin-can vehicles.
SIAM should also propose how they want to recycle the older ones without polluting, if there REAL concern is environment.
Why not propose to make airbags, abs mandatory in ALL vehicles ?
Why not propose to incentivize EV and build needed infrastructure to promote EV?
Why not propose for better toll management where 1000s of vehicles are waiting/idling few minutes every day, to save environment?

SIAM cares for environment !!!! That's bucket load of <whatever>.
harishpr is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 12th September 2017, 13:10   #41
Senior - BHPian
 
Reinhard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,117
Thanked: 1,169 Times
Default Re: SIAM asks government to ban 15-year old cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldice4u View Post

What you have quoted are reasons why you should have a car, these are problems, but do you really think more cars on the road is an answer to these and other such issues ?
And is it fair to expect the government to solve all the problems ? How can public transport work if they cant move at good speeds ?
Actually coldice4u, the thing is, we get 1 life & a big list of things to do. Having paid million+ rupees just in income tax, additional amounts in various local body taxes, service taxes and what not - I expect a good public transport. Transport which will not be free but we'll pay in tickets and other ways to keep it running.

I have spent on an average 10 hours a day at least in office with heavy-metal category rare weekends and holidays, for almost 13 years already. Sorry but I'm selfish & I don't have the time or will to actively work for a change. I want the people who draw salary from my taxes to do it.

Its very easy to say that we are part of the problem and we should actively contribute to solve it. On the ground level for the working class with a family, there are much higher priority problems to address first. Problems for which we know a solution - that will actually make a difference rather than just waste more time.

And until the problem is solved - I'll have to drive a car. And so will others. Its a catch22 as said before, but nobody can stop me from driving my car. Especially a well maintained car that will perfectly pass all emission norm tests, just because it is older than 15 years.

Oh and yes - trust me, banning 15 year old cars by no means will reduce the traffic on roads. Thats the primary topic of discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldice4u View Post
Isnt that a bit pessimistic ?
You have to visit Pune more often mate.
Another some decades here and I'm ripe for canonization.

Last edited by Reinhard : 12th September 2017 at 13:11.
Reinhard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NGT bans 10+ year old diesel vehicles in Kerala. EDIT: High Court stays ban darklord The Indian Car Scene 284 25th March 2017 21:41
Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18 Leepower The Indian Car Scene 270 28th September 2016 18:12
Delhi government asks dealerships to set up PUC centres Aditya The Indian Car Scene 9 15th May 2015 10:05
Government to allow color change, ban Bluetooth, iPOD and other rules dot The Indian Car Scene 64 19th April 2011 12:49


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 07:52.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks