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Old 1st February 2009, 22:33   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidindica View Post
i just tested and ripped an omni cargo 2003"junk" of a FMCG distributor and what I felt is that it is the safest vehicle on earth.

i took a sharp turn at 70 kmph and, not surprisingly, it toppled.

of course, I was wearing a helmet while driving the van.

not kidding, I did this today.


With the height that car has, the least safety requirements are wider tires. But I suppose that would push price up and fuel economy down. And anyway, Omni's are not meant to be ripped. They're meant to carry 15-20 people at low cost.
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Old 1st February 2009, 22:48   #77
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You are kidding me sid boy.
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Old 18th August 2009, 07:35   #78
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Yesterday a M&M manager died on the e way when his driver lost control of his speeding Scorpio - at 9 30 am. Hit a road sign, turned turtle etc etc.
Enough auto magazines in India have pointed out that the Scorpio is unsafe at speeds. I have never driven one, so I cannot comment definitively what it is that makes it so, but I suspect that M&M are guilty of knowingly giving it the power without enough of handling capability. In the hands of a driver that is uneducated about car behaviour, it is lethal. I drive a Pajero, and it is a very well sorted out car. Even so, I will not drive it at speeds in excess of 125 kmph, given its mass acquired momentum and high CG. Yet I see Scorpios, Safaris, Sumos sailing past at speeds well in excess of what I consider safe in a car that is one that is much better engineered than any Indian SUV.
I think that Tata is not too far behind with the Safari and the Sumo. It is easy to give more and more power, it takes a lot of engineering to give the means to control that power. If this was the US, both companies would be getting sued for amounts that would shut them down.
I learnt my driving in an older age, when I was taught that the first thing you need to learn is how to stop safely. From all speeds. Our manufacturers have thrown that book out of the window, and I hold both Anand Mahindra and Ratan Tata to be guilty of culpable homicide in allowing such cars to come on the roads, when both of them know enough about the subject to know what is happening.
A lot of vehicles in India become unsafe because they are misused, or ill treated, but there needs to be a campaign against cars that are unsafe from the time they leave the showroom floor. We keep hearing cribs about cars not being equipped with the latest tech like ABS etc, which is fine, but that is icing on the cake. Our manufacturers are guilty of putting out defective cakes that kill.

Last edited by Sawyer : 18th August 2009 at 07:36.
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Old 18th August 2009, 07:56   #79
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And before people start saying it is the drivers to blame, here is something in their defense.
Given the rpm ranges that the engine can comfortably cruise at, what does that mean in terms of top speed in fifth? Can the car be put into an emergency braking or turning/lane changing/swerving situation safely from those speeds? These speeds are on the rise with all the focus on engine development/power/sound insulation. Manufacturers cannot claim that running the cars at those speeds is reckless driving, surely, they are designing the cars to reach and run at those speeds. But not to handle or to stop safely, in a straight line.
Also, getting sound insulation improved is relatively cheap. Does the driver feel insulated from what is happening outside the cabin to such an extent that he loses a sense of the speeds he is running? Encouraging him to drive beyond safe limits?
Taking my Pajero example, above 125 in 5th, the engine starts getting noisy and feels strained and out of breath. That helps me in keeping my sense of speed intact. If it had an engine that took me effortlessly to 150-160, and the cabin remained silent, it would be a lot harder to stay at the lower speed, and take a lot more character than I possess, probably! Btw, the Pajero is sold as a 150 km topspeed car, and it can run at those speeds, but that is another story.
Do our manufacturers have anyone in their organizations even thinking on these lines? I have my doubts.

Last edited by Sawyer : 18th August 2009 at 07:59.
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Old 18th August 2009, 08:03   #80
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A combination of short wheelbase, high cg, unsafe driving leads to vehicle toppling.

Common culprints are maruti omni, tata sumo, mahindra scorpio vehicles.
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Old 18th August 2009, 08:09   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepItSimple View Post
A combination of short wheelbase, high cg, unsafe driving leads to vehicle toppling.

Common culprints are maruti omni, tata sumo, mahindra scorpio vehicles.
The first two are a matter of physics that every one that has studied in high school knows. Does this knowledge not cast a responsibility on the manufacturers to spend a lot more on cars that are affected by these, so that they handle and brake much better to compensate?
On the Nano, Tata has put in a speed limiter. Probably to save themselves from blown engine warranty claims. For totally the wrong reasons they have done the right thing. Blown engines are more of a loss in a country where life is cheap.
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Old 18th August 2009, 08:40   #82
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Originally Posted by ScorpMan View Post
Nothing can beat THE MARUTI OMNI in achieving this award.
I second this. OMNI is the most unsafe vehicle on today's Indian roads. How can one small steel rod placed between the front headlights act as a saftey for the front passanger's. the whole van is so light that at 80kmph i bet it will start to float in air.

I still remember those hi-roof omni's which were so scray. are they still in production????

Last edited by sajands : 18th August 2009 at 08:48.
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Old 18th August 2009, 08:43   #83
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In india any vehicle beyond speed of 80kmph is unsafe. Anything can heppen in many places where (including golden quadrelateral highway) road lacks safety because of bad design because of public not following rules and not using common sense.

In my experience most of Maruti cars are unsafe. Maruti built for economy not safety. Only airbag and ABS won't save human it is build quality and control.

In other way many people drive few big vehicles like Scorpio and Sumo rashly. I travelled in both and found safe speed for such vehicles is around 60-70kmph but anything beyond 80kmph is sucidal.

Only few Sedans like Civic,Corolla,Accent etc.. have ability cruise above 100kmph!

Even Innova and Safari's safe speed is 80-90kmph. Beyond that its not advisable in most of Indian roads.

Ravi.
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Old 18th August 2009, 08:43   #84
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To me the most unsafe vehicle on Indian Roads is the Maruti Omni. I feel it should be withdrawn from Passenger sales be sold only as the Cargo with a Speed Limiter at 40 KMPH.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
The first two are a matter of physics that every one that has studied in high school knows. Does this knowledge not cast a responsibility on the manufacturers to spend a lot more on cars that are affected by these, so that they handle and brake much better to compensate?
I think everybody from Manufacturer to owner to driver are to blame for making vehicles unsafe. Omni was originally designed as load carrying van but in India, MUL transforms it into a passenger van ( third world country , low purchasing power et al). It doesn't stop there, MUL further wanting to make a quick buck transforms it into a 8 seater. Owning to the light weight, drivers zip around making them potential targets on road.
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Old 18th August 2009, 09:23   #85
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a scorpio is a safe vehicle if the driver knows the limitations of the SUV. in the hands of a new driver or any enthusiast & the combination of the powerful engine, its suicidal.
the best max speed to cruise around in a scorpio is 80-120 kmph, depending on whether its a single lane highway or a multi lane expressway. but even at this speed, the scorpio will be safe provided the driver does not try anitcs like high speed cornering.
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Old 18th August 2009, 09:27   #86
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i agree with raj 100%. as a person who has grown up with jeeps and suchlike I endorse the fact that one needs to know the limitations of any vehicle. I have commented many times on this forum that one cannot expect to drive an SUV or any other vehicle with a high CG, the way one would drive a sports sedan. I stand by that. Speeds - ideally the Scorpio or other such, should stick to the band between 80-120Kmph MAX. Not worth trying to do 140-150 etc - unless of course one secretly harbours some sort of a death-wish. I personally would prefer to err on the side of caution rather than foolhardy showmanship.
in the final balance it comes back to the same old thing - ANY vehicle can be lethally unsafe to itself, its occupants and other road users, when in the inexpert hands of an idiot. therefore, the motto of 'Safety First', should be honoured more in the observance than in the breach of it. How many times when driving in the hills I ve seen idiot 'plains' drivers speeding up and down in the wrong gear and using the brakes all the time. How many times I have seen these self same fools behaving the same way they do in the cities, with no respect for lane discipline.
All this, coupled with super fast, powerful automobiles, result in far more road accidents and deaths than otherwise. The tragedy is that with just a little responsibility, so much of this utter waste of lives, machines and property, can be so easily prevented!

Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
a scorpio is a safe vehicle if the driver knows the limitations of the SUV. in the hands of a new driver or any enthusiast & the combination of the powerful engine, its suicidal.
the best max speed to cruise around in a scorpio is 80-120 kmph, depending on whether its a single lane highway or a multi lane expressway. but even at this speed, the scorpio will be safe provided the driver does not try anitcs like high speed cornering.

Last edited by shankar.balan : 18th August 2009 at 09:33.
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Old 18th August 2009, 09:36   #87
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@ sawyer: buddy, one think i left to add is that you think when mahindras & tatas cannot handle speed, they should not be given that much power. but i disagree. mahindra/tata has given the power for good driveability & for good load pulling ability & not for maxing out the car at 150 kmph! the refinement you are talking about is a "must" in today's fierce competition. you cannot expect any manufacturer to give you a unrefined vehicle just to ensure the driver does not overspeed! so if a driver cannot understand this, it is indeed his fault. he has to get his driving lessons right.
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Old 18th August 2009, 10:29   #88
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@raj - the point I am making is that an automaker has the moral responsibility to not let loose on the public cars that have suspect handling and braking at the speeds they can comfortably generate. Mahindra and Tata vehicles fall in the category of cars that are unsafe by design at such speeds. Control comes before power. No one can convince me otherwise. And if you read my post, I was talking of control at speeds these cars can comfortably cruise at. Not maxed out at. At maxed out speeds, every time you come back alive, consider yourself lucky. In any car.
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Old 18th August 2009, 11:13   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
@raj - the point I am making is that an automaker has the moral responsibility to not let loose on the public cars that have suspect handling and braking at the speeds they can comfortably generate. Mahindra and Tata vehicles fall in the category of cars that are unsafe by design at such speeds. Control comes before power. No one can convince me otherwise. And if you read my post, I was talking of control at speeds these cars can comfortably cruise at. Not maxed out at. At maxed out speeds, every time you come back alive, consider yourself lucky. In any car.
I think the onus is on the buyer to understand the capabilities of the vehicle. Companies will make what sells. If there is a demand in the market for cars that are safer, and the market is willing to shell out extra AND live with lower FE, then the supply will meet the demand.
Expecting manufacturers to make idiot-proof vehicles is like asking gun manufacturers to make guns that shoot only the bad guys and work only in the hands of law enforcers.
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Old 18th August 2009, 13:13   #90
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Amit, i completely agree with you.Also, we need to have very stringent law enforcement. Speed limits, especially on highways, need be monitored continuously and should be enforced strictly.Errand drivers must be penalized. Also, repeat offenders need to dealt with severely. Only then, can we have safe roads.
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