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Old 18th August 2009, 13:40   #91
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absolutely. cmon, i have seen a crashed Q7, E class & even a 7 series. now these vehicles, as you say, are very safe cars by design. then what could be the reason for the crash?
over confident drivers. who thinks the electronic gadgetry in these cars can prevent any mishaps. thats not the case though. it the same with the scorpio & safari. over powerful engines with the steering in the hands of an idiot will lead to miserable circumstances. cant blame the manufacturer though.
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Old 18th August 2009, 13:50   #92
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i like this point. the tools are not to blame, the users usually are.

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asking gun manufacturers to make guns that shoot only the bad guys and work only in the hands of law enforcers.
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Old 18th August 2009, 16:13   #93
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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
like asking gun manufacturers to make guns that shoot only the bad guys and work only in the hands of law enforcers.
All I am asking is expend the effort to make sure owners don't shoot themselves!
It is not as if the technology does not exist - it does, if the will is there to incorporate it. And I am talking mechanical engineering here, not the latest electronic gadgetry. There is nothing of the latter kind in the 15 year old Pajero, but it is a lot safer at speeds on the roads compared to the Scorpio and the Safari. On the other hand, you will see that Mahindra and Tata are happy load the electronic gizmos, without doing the hard work to sort out the fundamentals.
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Old 18th August 2009, 16:39   #94
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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
All I am asking is expend the effort to make sure owners don't shoot themselves!
It is not as if the technology does not exist - it does, if the will is there to incorporate it. And I am talking mechanical engineering here, not the latest electronic gadgetry. There is nothing of the latter kind in the 15 year old Pajero, but it is a lot safer at speeds on the roads compared to the Scorpio and the Safari. On the other hand, you will see that Mahindra and Tata are happy load the electronic gizmos, without doing the hard work to sort out the fundamentals.
Industries do not run on "will" alone. They need money.

How can a 15 year old Pajero have electronics that did not exist back then at the same price point at which they are available now?

Next, comparing a Pajero to a Tata or Mahindra is not exactly a fair comparison.

And second to last, I beg to differ that there have been no improvements in handling of Scorpio and Safari over the years. I have been witness to a Scorpio being tested by Mahindra on the Chennai track to gauge its handling. Its a different matter that the test driver managed to topple it But the point here is that the handling area is not being neglected.

And now the last point. Improved handling, straightline braking, ABS, EBD, airbags etc will be of no help to the poor soul who will get run over by a drunk driver.
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Old 18th August 2009, 16:56   #95
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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post

How can a 15 year old Pajero have electronics that did not exist back then at the same price point at which they are available now?

Next, comparing a Pajero to a Tata or Mahindra is not exactly a fair comparison.

.And second to last, I beg to differ that there have been no improvements in handling of Scorpio and Safari over the years. I have been witness to a Scorpio being tested by Mahindra on the Chennai track to gauge its handling. Its a different matter that the test driver managed to topple it But the point here is that the handling area is not being neglected.
I was not complaining about the Pajero, I was pointing out that superior engineering is the key to its better handling, even without the gizmos. And why can we not compare a 15 year old Pajero with the newer Indian cars? Go and stand under one, look at the suspension and steering componentry - there is nothing there that cannot be done for the price that the Scorpio and Safari are sold.
Finally, the reason why there has been so much improvement over the cars in these two areas points to how badly engineered they were in this area in the first place, when first released. How many deaths were caused in the time it took these two companies to fix what should never have been wrong in the first place?
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Old 18th August 2009, 17:10   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
I was not complaining about the Pajero, I was pointing out that superior engineering is the key to its better handling, even without the gizmos. And why can we not compare a 15 year old Pajero with the newer Indian cars? Go and stand under one, look at the suspension and steering componentry - there is nothing there that cannot be done for the price that the Scorpio and Safari are sold.
I know you were not complaining about the lack of gizmos in Pajero. I was pointing out the fact that the manufacturer did not have a choice back then between gizmos and mechanical aspects. Anyway, thats not an issue.

I'll agree to your point "there is nothing there that cannot be done for the price that the Scorpio and Safari are sold", assuming that you are more informed than i am regarding the costs involved in designing and building an SUV. I don't think though, that it is as easy as taking an already tried and tested vehicle, like a Pajero, and just copying everything!
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Old 18th August 2009, 17:22   #97
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Valid points by Sawyer and the others countering his logic too.

You can handover a gun to a person but how do you stop him from killing himself knowing for sure that it can.

This is where simple commonsense kicks in. I have a 1.5 ton lumbering vehicle with 100+ Bhp but whose height is about 7 feet. I can kill myself if i try stunts on this. I shouldn't. Simple.

I have a 1 ton S Class with all the safety gadgets in the world but if i ram this car into the back of a 8 ton lorry at the maximum speed the S Class can manage i won't be living to tell the story. I shouldn't drive at those speeds where such lorries can kill me. Simple.

I have a tin can on wheels (Omni). even if i hit a tree at 30 kmph I will get myself killed instantly. I shouldn't do that cause even if i manage to stay alive i wont be getting off a bed ever.

Now how do we wire commonsense into the heads of the drivers who do not understand the limitations of their vehicles.

Here Mercedes, Mahindra and Maruti gave you a vehicle for a price you could afford and packaged it as per that. If you drive it over a cliff how are they to be blamed - add parachutes then?
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Old 18th August 2009, 17:24   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj View Post

I'll agree to your point "there is nothing there that cannot be done for the price that the Scorpio and Safari are sold", assuming that you are more informed than i am regarding the costs involved in designing and building an SUV. I don't think though, that it is as easy as taking an already tried and tested vehicle, like a Pajero, and just copying everything!
Yes, I do know a lot, and no, it is not just as easy as copying it. That is why Indian automakers struggle to create a new platform, not having the global volumes to amortize the R&D spend over. Does that mean that they are therefore entitled to do just as much as they can afford, and release underengineered products that can kill on Indian roads? Maybe some people may believe that this is a legitimate price to pay for Indian companies to acquire the capability, but I am afraid I can't see it that way.
And I am not talking here about cutting edge gizmos, I am talking about engineering and testing hours to get the fundamentals fully sorted out. If one does not have the capability to design and build a safe SUV, based on current technology that is rooted in mechanical engineering principles that have been around for years, for speeds that one powers it for, I am questioning their right to do this. But then of course, this is India, life is cheap.
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Old 18th August 2009, 17:41   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
Yes, I do know a lot, and no, it is not just as easy as copying it. That is why Indian automakers struggle to create a new platform, not having the global volumes to amortize the R&D spend over. Does that mean that they are therefore entitled to do just as much as they can afford, and release underengineered products that can kill on Indian roads? Maybe some people may believe that this is a legitimate price to pay for Indian companies to acquire the capability, but I am afraid I can't see it that way.
And I am not talking here about cutting edge gizmos, I am talking about engineering and testing hours to get the fundamentals fully sorted out. If one does not have the capability to design and build a safe SUV, based on current technology that is rooted in mechanical engineering principles that have been around for years, for speeds that one powers it for, I am questioning their right to do this. But then of course, this is India, life is cheap.
I think the basic point where, in my opinion, you are going wrong is that you are saying that its the vehicle thats killing people out there. Its as if the cars break apart without notice at high speeds!

There is no such thing as a "safe car" or a "safe SUV". A vehicle is as safe as the driver. There were some posts here on TBHP itself that showed a brand new Pajero turned upside down. Do you think Mitsubishi has gone wrong over the years with their suspension (which is highly unlikely)?? Surely, they should have been able to prevent this from happening with the years and years of R&d and testing under their belt, right?
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Old 18th August 2009, 18:00   #100
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@ sawyer: buddy, you should agree that even pajero or for that matter, many expensive cars have been seen in many accidents. for that matter, i saw a volvo XC90 rear ended a SX4 few months back. now volvo cars are perfectly engineered for safety, then what caused this accident?
i am not saying what you are saying is wrong but it is a little impractical. every car is safe as long as it is in the correct hands.
i will say a scorpio is a safe car because i have been driving one for the past 5-6 years, within city to 4 lane express highways to single lane state highways, from speeds varying from 40 kmph to 140 kmph & has not met with any accident till date, touch wood! that is simply because i do not intend to test the limits of the SUV.
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Old 19th August 2009, 02:05   #101
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According to me the most unsafe vehicles are :-

1. Alto ( wherever you see behind every accident and a traffic jam you will find an alto behind every stupid thing you will find an alto. Heck i know of some people who were perfectly good drivers before they sat behind the wheels of an alto).

2. Rickshaws
3. Trucks and Taxies
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Old 19th August 2009, 04:35   #102
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Originally Posted by irulee View Post
According to me the most unsafe vehicles are :-

1. Alto ( wherever you see behind every accident and a traffic jam you will find an alto behind every stupid thing you will find an alto. Heck i know of some people who were perfectly good drivers before they sat behind the wheels of an alto).

2. Rickshaws
3. Trucks and Taxies
The most damgerous part in any Vehicle?
"THE NUT BEHIND THE WHEEL"

No point in blaming the vehicles.
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Old 19th August 2009, 06:47   #103
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Originally Posted by amitoj View Post

There is no such thing as a "safe car" or a "safe SUV".
I agree, 100%.
But I thought this thread was about cars that are inherently unsafe, and there is a discernible difference in the two statements. I must have misunderstood the thread title.
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Old 19th August 2009, 12:11   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
.....And I am not talking here about cutting edge gizmos, I am talking about engineering and testing hours to get the fundamentals fully sorted out....
Quote:
Originally Posted by amitoj View Post
I think the basic point where, in my opinion, you are going wrong is that you are saying that its the vehicle thats killing people out there. Its as if the cars break apart without notice at high speeds!.....
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
@ sawyer: buddy, you should agree that even pajero or for that matter, many expensive cars have been seen in many accidents. for that matter, i saw a volvo XC90 rear ended a SX4 few months back. now volvo cars are perfectly engineered for safety, then what caused this accident?..........
I believe what Sawyer is saying, in short, is that at the same (high) speeds and on the same roads, a Pajero has a much better chance of completing a tight turn without a crash or making an emergency stop with minimum deviation from a straight line. And that the engineering on the Pajero which gives it these qualities can be replicated but that some Indian manufacturers are not putting in the effort to do so.

Amitoj, you have some valid points and some I disagree with. Regardiing your example, a gun is an instrument that is designed to be used in only one way - point and shoot. A car is different. Yes a vehicle is as safe as the driver and a driver should know that it is much more dangerous to take a tight turn at 125 than at 60. But I think it is a reasonable expectation of a buyer that if a car can do 125 without straining, its braking and turning abilities will be in some proportion to its power. You need to remember the majority of buyers are not experts in design and engineering - they depend on the engineers and designers at the manufacturers to take care of these things and put their trust in the product.

Raj_5004, a Volvo may be a very safe and well enginnered car but if you don't brake on time, you are likely to hit something. Safe engineering does not mean the car cannot be involved in a crash - it only means it is more stable and has a higher chance of protecting its occupants in case of a crash.
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Old 19th August 2009, 12:40   #105
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Originally Posted by straightdrive View Post
Raj_5004, a Volvo may be a very safe and well enginnered car but if you don't brake on time, you are likely to hit something. Safe engineering does not mean the car cannot be involved in a crash - it only means it is more stable and has a higher chance of protecting its occupants in case of a crash.
thats exactly what i am saying buddy. IF you dont brake on time, even the best engineered car wont save you.

yes, what you saying is right, that a pajero is safer than a scorpio/safari. but then implementing the pajero's design in scorpio is not as easy as a copy-paste job.
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