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View Poll Results: What car you prefer?? - Japanese, German, Korean etc etc
American [Ford, GM, etc etc] 64 7.67%
French [Peugeot, Citroen etc et] 9 1.08%
German [BMW, Merc, etc ] 408 48.92%
Japanese [Toyota, Honda etc] 329 39.45%
Korean [Hyundai, Kia etc etc] 24 2.88%
Voters: 834. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 13th September 2005, 23:25   #211
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Merve, does that mean that Americans and germans are INCAPABLE of building low cost high performance cars whose parts are easily available is it???I pity them dearly!!! I thought americans were the most resourceful of all,,,atleast more resourceful than Japanese!!! Yeah, actualy all the american resources dwindle paying the highly paid Japanese(not to mention Indians and israelis) they employ in their automotive sector...Im with you Merve
So now you and me know what is America's weakness when it comes to motoring...Harleys and Hummers dont sell elsewhere,,,its booked for the all american patriots eh???well...now we know it all...

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Old 13th September 2005, 23:45   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r
It's very easy. You can ask our Super-M, GTO. Ever had a complaint off his Vtec, that too a 2nd hand one? Nope!
I'd love to have GTO answer this question: If he could keep only one car from his current stable, which would it be? I know the answer, and it ain't the Vtec OR the Benz. Am I right GTO??

Seriously though, just last night we went for a drive in his Benz and we got talking about the small details that go into making a Benz a Benz. You just get that "feel good" factor when you're sitting in it. I mean, other cars may have the same gizmo's, but, like the old Maggi ketchup ad used to say, "its different"!

I dare anyone here to sit in a Camry and get that same feeling.
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Old 14th September 2005, 01:36   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme
not all car companies on this earth make cars to earn huge profits and double their sales every 2 years.
.
Seriously? Then why do they make cars? Why is MB in such a rush to introduce classes from A to Z, when a decade ago they had only 5 or so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme
when u say toyota is going to be no 1 in the world it is in respect to their sales and not how much money they earn.if mercedes were to sell even half the cars that toyota does they would have double the turnover that of toyota.

Money earned can also be taken to mean profit. Toyota is the world's most profitable automaker, with profits of US$ 10.9 billion.
Source: http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/...e_20050725.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme
and about street racing,those guys go for jap cars because they are cheap and performance parts are easily available because the cars are there in large numbers..
What happened to all the cheap American cars? The Buicks and the Fords? Or is it, just maybe, that even Americans know that their cars aren't quick enough? Not enough bang for their buck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme
if a BMW M5 or Merc E55 or those ones modified by babrus were to be introduced in competition,these cars would kill scare the living daylight out of modified jap cars.they dont do 200mhp+ just for fun.but most american street racers wont have the money to buy these cars and even if they did they wont race them because they are too costly to be fooled around with.
..
So basically, dollar for dollar, you are acknowledging that Japanese cars perform better.
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Old 14th September 2005, 07:02   #214
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As a side note, Toyota had the maximum profit this year but instead of distributing it as dividend to its loyal shareholders, it decided to put 60% of the money back into research with the consent of the shareholders. Now if this was US, the chairman would have taken a hefty pay raise, cut costs of the production and laid workers off, same with Europe, profit and popularity would mean the justification to raise the price of the car. If you need to see more of the ugly side of US big three, watch Michael Moor's Roger and I and also catch up on some real revealing books written by the great Ralph Nader.

About comparing 50s and 60s Buick and Chevrolet still on the road, it is totally out of context, the Nissan Patrols and Land Cruiser circa 69 are doing active off road duty while these old American cars are in show car status, not being pounded off road daily.
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Old 14th September 2005, 09:21   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r
Seriously? Then why do they make cars? Why is MB in such a rush to introduce classes from A to Z, when a decade ago they had only 5 or so?
i was talking of RR here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r
What happened to all the cheap American cars? The Buicks and the Fords? Or is it, just maybe, that even Americans know that their cars aren't quick enough? Not enough bang for their buck?
American saloon cars are never designed to be performance oriented and why they dont use corvetes is a puzzle to me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r
So basically, dollar for dollar, you are acknowledging that Japanese cars perform better.
VFM was never an german agenda.yes euro cars are overprized(u have to pay for their trademarks,do u think provogue shirts are worth the money they command or can anyone ever make a 80K rupee suite).the point is no matter how hard u try a toyota celica can never beat a M5 on the road or the track.
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Old 14th September 2005, 09:51   #216
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In case all the Western fans haven't realised, all these cars are the ultimate aspirational vehicles, nothing else. White men's mobile dreams. The Gelande Wagen, RR Phantom, Range Rover, MBs, Beemers, they're all status symbols. That's why they're so prominent in black gangsta rap videos. Make your Joe Rapstar feel all up there with the WASPs.

On the other hand, how many streetracers do you know that run Western cars? When performance at a price matters, you go Japanese.


True. But have seen Camaro's beating the hell out of Supra's bro.
People all these years in the US esp never had issues with the gas prices but NOW you see lot of them wanting to buy cars which are more fuel efficient now. Dodge's charger for e.g. now comes with some new tech optimising on the FE and the power.


Japanese ingenuity cannot be questioned. But if you look at where the majority of the innovations in the auto sector are coming from, you would know the answer.

Last edited by Ajay : 14th September 2005 at 09:55.
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Old 14th September 2005, 09:59   #217
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Supra is twin turbo straight six developing 360bhp and is 22% lighter than the V8 Camaro, with far better power to weigt ratio, how do you see it loosing to the Camaro, Supra is also 1994 vintage slated for a huge update.

About innovations, 5 valves per cylinder, radical rotary engines, 4 wheel steering, single crank V5 and the list goes on comes from copycat Japan.
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Old 14th September 2005, 10:06   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme
not all car companies on this earth make cars to earn huge profits and double their sales every 2 years.


Mods please excuse, but you dont get occassions like this every day!


Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme
if mercedes were to sell even half the cars that toyota does they would have double the turnover that of toyota.but there are not that many luxury buyers.
Wonders why Merc bends over backwards to build things like the Smart car and extend that concept into an A Class. If Schremp hadnt pushed for the 'C' class in the late 80s, Merc may well have been history because it is that segment that sustains its cashflows.

Incidentally Merc also makes trucks, tractors and cargo vans like the Transporter (a.k.a Tempo Traveller in India). So much for the arguement that they make only luxury vehicles, and that too not for profit...they will make anything, as long as it brings the $$$ in. As will any carmaker. Unfortunately carmaking is a challenge when you cant charge for intangibles like 'image' or 'hype' to compensate for additional costs caused by inefficiency. Thats why making a small or economy car is so difficult and the Japs excel at it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by merve_extreme
and about the RR,it was never here for technological marvel.RR stands for perfection and workmanship.it for the people who appreciate perfection in cars and not for ones who are turned away by the looks.
For perfection, no one comes close to Toyota today - you can compare them to ANY carmaker. Which is why people buy the Corolla and Camry despite their ridiculous looks.
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Old 14th September 2005, 10:49   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r
I'd like to see the profit margins on one year's production of CCR's as compared to one year's production of Civics or Camrys.

So, typeO, what you're saying is Western companies are run by people who are rather stupid. I agree.
Yes. That is precisely my point. You only have to look at Fiat India's operations over here to see the massive f***up they have done. If they get Japanese style management and commitment ot quality however, I don't think the Japs stand a chance. Even us Indians are better than the copy cat Japs when it comes to innovation.
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Old 14th September 2005, 11:06   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf
TypeOnegative,,,according to you 1950 buicks are offroaders is it??? and can perform in australian rough conditions today is it??? wipe it man!!!
Awesome! Nice way to put words into my mouth or in this case letters into my post. LOL

The point that Gurkha was making was that it is not possible to say that Japanese have an obsession with light weight vehicles because some of their relics are still running as off roaders. Which led to my counter point that if reliability was an issue with Western cars why are some of their even more ancient relics still running? Comprende pardner? The issues is that the gremlins we see in cars that we dislike are not upto stringent scrutiny.

The Japanese have made some amazing vehicles. I agree. But my point through out is that they are not innovators. They pick up an idea and better it. Western firms on the other hand are good innovators but lack that killer punch to deliver a consistently performing product. Not just in mechanical/automotive terms but in terms of the overall product offering - customer service, value for money etc.

Actually right now I bet the Koreans are going to kick some really serious Japanese butt, because Japanese firms too are going the Western way. Does that mean that Koreans make better cars? I dont think so. Competent yes, but there is that X factor missing.

In the end it boils down to pure personal taste. I like my cars heavier and stronger. I don't mind being beaten to 100 kmph by a Jap pretender. Similarly you might prefer that Honda City to a Hyundai Elantra and don't mind missing on the better creature comforts in the Elantra.

The car need not be made in USA or Germany to be 'Western'. It is the entire philosophy that goes into making it. The doors that shut with a thunk, the class and the lineage that shows up in the lines, the firsts that come up with every release - not just some superficial changes to grilles and head lamps - etc.. That's what I like. If you don't dude, that is your issue.
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Old 14th September 2005, 11:11   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurkha
About comparing 50s and 60s Buick and Chevrolet still on the road, it is totally out of context, the Nissan Patrols and Land Cruiser circa 69 are doing active off road duty while these old American cars are in show car status, not being pounded off road daily.
See my reply to Wolf's post to clear the confusion. I raised this point because there is a place in India where they still run these relics as taxis. The Patrols (Jonga right?) and Land Cruisers are very good off roaders, but tell me dude, if I gave you the money enough to buy a Land Rover and asked you to spend all of that money on a car which one would you buy? Answer from the heart.
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Old 14th September 2005, 11:16   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
Unfortunately carmaking is a challenge when you cant charge for intangibles like 'image' or 'hype' to compensate for additional costs caused by inefficiency. Thats why making a small or economy car is so difficult and the Japs excel at it.
You have hit the nail on the head. But once again if it is a car that you would prefer to have, you might go in for those stupid German cars. Of course with a Honda/Toyota in your garage. The Japanese cut their teeth making cars for a poorer segment of world society. Then they went on to make decent cars for a richer segment for society and made their money. But they have nglected their roots I think. Which is why in time they will be beaten hollow by the Koreans who in turn will be beaten by Indians/Chinese. Who knows?

Last edited by typeOnegative : 14th September 2005 at 11:32.
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Old 14th September 2005, 11:28   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid


Mods please excuse, but you dont get occassions like this every day!
i said it was with respect to RR.RR dosent have the ambition to double the sale of its cars,hence it sells to selected customers only.yes everyone wants to make profits but not the type toyota do by mass producing cheap cars.so companies make smaller profits by trying to maintain their luxury and techno edge(which accidentially requires lot of money).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
Wonders why Merc bends over backwards to build things like the Smart car and extend that concept into an A Class. If Schremp hadnt pushed for the 'C' class in the late 80s, Merc may well have been history because it is that segment that sustains its cashflows.
this is the biggest misconception u have.the C-class is the only less selling Merc in its class.The majority of mercs money comes from the E-class and s-Class,both of which are class leaders in sales in their respective segements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
Incidentally Merc also makes trucks, tractors and cargo vans like the Transporter (a.k.a Tempo Traveller in India). So much for the arguement that they make only luxury vehicles, and that too not for profit...they will make anything, as long as it brings the $$$ in. As will any carmaker. Unfortunately carmaking is a challenge when you cant charge for intangibles like 'image' or 'hype' to compensate for additional costs caused by inefficiency.
no one said that merc makes only luxury cars.even the Mercs trucks will be better built than ur toyota crown.if u bother to go thru this thread again u will find i have mention that even after making trucks Merc still maintains its reputation as no 1 luxury brand in the world.that is the image.try doing that with toyota.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
Thats why making a small or economy car is so difficult and the Japs excel at it.
the Fiat palio and the golf the clio are examples of excellent small cars from europe(which are much better than their jap rivals).and it is not difficult in making small cars because consumers dont demand anything else in small cars than economy and easy maintanence which are virtues of a small engine(at which the japs excel).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
For perfection, no one comes close to Toyota today - you can compare them to ANY carmaker. Which is why people buy the Corolla and Camry despite their ridiculous looks.
that is the biggest overstatement anyone would ever make.a toyota is better build than a RR.u have to be kidding me.making a perfectly reliable engine is not making a perfect automobile.go any measure the panel gaps in a RR they would be perfect in Microns and the stiches on the leather will all be in one line without a single inperfection.u dont seem to admire craftmanship hence u have this liking for cheap jap cars(which have no signs of craftmanship).

i dont have access to smilies otherwise i would have expressed myself better.

Last edited by merve_extreme : 14th September 2005 at 11:35. Reason: typing error
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Old 14th September 2005, 12:32   #224
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Nevermind that...talking about hand crafted precision tell me what has hand made got to do with the shape of the car, unless Rolls Royce starts making car body's with clay!!! The hand made part is the embozing, craftsmanship in the interiors and the precision chistles on the alloys and the monogram/logo,,,,but the my whole point was about the shape and the body lines and others...You getting me man??
Ironically almost all the cars in this world are first prepared by clay :-) Let me explain it for you. Most of them have prototype studios where clay models are made to create surfaces. Now a days, rapid prototyping machines are used for doing this. It is mixture of engineering and art. The surface is carefully sampled with a data grid and then the surface is generated using a surface modeller. This then goes into production where CAM models are made and NC/CNC machine codes are generated. I can not but laugh at that "tailoring" analogy.

Just to sum this discussion, Japanese excel in production processes and management, which leads into cheap and quality conscious cars which are reliable. Germans excel in engineering and design. They also excelled in production, but recently have had too many reliability issues due to their penchant to introduce electronic gizmos. While I was off to my hometown last week, I saw three 20+ year old VW Golfs. All of them were in far better condition than a 10 year Maruti 800s or 5 year old Santros. And of course, all of them (Golfs/Marutis/Santros) are road worthy.

A perfect production does not mean perfect design. And a perfect design can go waste if incorrectly produced with low quality tolerances. Japanese are excellent manufactures, but fact still remains that German cars are over engineered.
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Old 14th September 2005, 12:40   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtech
Seriously though, just last night we went for a drive in his Benz and we got talking about the small details that go into making a Benz a Benz. You just get that "feel good" factor when you're sitting in it. I mean, other cars may have the same gizmo's, but, like the old Maggi ketchup ad used to say, "its different"!
Spot on, Rtech. It has to be felt and not talked about. It is not for no reason that S-Class is considered to be the "Best Automobile" on the planet.

I guess, GTO has not replied because he is caught up between a VTec and a Benz :-)
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