Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 1st July 2006, 08:50   #226
BANNED
 
MrBoombastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Chennai
Posts: 253
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu
And why don't you realise, thats how Vtec engines are supposed to work. The OHC Vtec was a SOHC, was as fuel efficient as a 1.3 but, did that affect it's performance?

Chalk down all the 1.5-1.6 ltr DOHC cars launched in India and see how they fare against it.

I ain't saying the Civic will be quicker than the RS (thats got a TC, which will definetely give it the edge) but, it ain't gonna be slow either. It's main rival in performance would be the "Naturally Aspirated" Corolla.

Shan2nu
While you make a very valid point with your post (I do understand the VTEC bit as one of the cars I own is a Karela Corolla which has VVTi + DOHC), let's not forget that if Honda has VTEC/ iVTEC, others have VVTi and VTVT (That's what Hyundai calls their version of variable valve timing, yes?).... So, I stated what I did.

Please don't take this the wrong way as you personally know that I've almost always praised Honda Cars and that you have even asked me if all of my last 12-14 cars that I've owned in the last 10 years were ALL Hondas, but when something is obvious with a car of any make (yes, even if I own it), I'm above brand bias and almost all on this forum (especially the Chennai Team-BHPians I've met) know how much I hate the Corolla even though it's a very sensible car as an all-rounder in it's segment in India.

Last edited by MrBoombastic : 1st July 2006 at 08:53.
MrBoombastic is offline  
Old 1st July 2006, 10:04   #227
BANNED
 
mclaren1885's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bangalore (the city of modded cars) !!
Posts: 4,821
Thanked: 28 Times
Infractions: 0/1 (10)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu
And why don't you realise, thats how Vtec engines are supposed to work. The OHC Vtec was a SOHC, was as fuel efficient as a 1.3 but, did that affect it's performance?

Chalk down all the 1.5-1.6 ltr DOHC cars launched in India and see how they fare against it.
Shan2nu
Completely agree with shantanu on this .. SOHC doesnt mean a sluggish car , best example being the OHC VTEC .. Only the palio 1.6L DOHC came some what close to it i think ??
mclaren1885 is offline  
Old 1st July 2006, 10:56   #228
Senior - BHPian
 
Shan2nu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hubli - Karnata
Posts: 5,525
Thanked: 87 Times
Default

Quote:
let's not forget that if Honda has VTEC/ iVTEC, others have VVTi and VTVT (That's what Hyundai calls their version of variable valve timing, yes?).... So, I stated what I did.
Don't worry, we've got both Vtec and VVti in our garage.

What your Corolla has isn't what Vtec is. While VVti comes with variable valve timing, Vtec has variable valve timing with electronic lift control.

The Toyota engine can only vary the valve timing but the Vtec can also increases and decreases the travel of it's valves at diff engine rpms and this my friend, is the key to FE.

The only Toyota engine that works like the Vtec is the VVTLi (L stands for "Lift Control") which unfortunately, isn't found on the Indian models.

Think about it.
Corolla + vvti + dohc + 1.8 + NA = 125bhp
Civic + vtec + sohc + 1.8 + NA = 132bhp

Quote:
Completely agree with shantanu on this .. SOHC doesnt mean a sluggish car , best example being the OHC VTEC .. Only the palio 1.6L DOHC came some what close to it i think ??
One off the purposes of have a DOHC engine is to be able to house a 4 valve per cylinder layout. But look, Honda and Suzuki are doing the same, with SOHCs. Even our Wagon R comes with 4 valves per cylinder.

Ofcourse a DOHC Vtec is anyday better than a SOHC Vtec but, an SOHC Vtec is still good enuf.

So, there's nothing wrong in owning a SOHC engined Civic. It'l still pack a punch.

Shan2nu

Last edited by Shan2nu : 1st July 2006 at 11:07.
Shan2nu is offline  
Old 1st July 2006, 17:54   #229
BANNED
 
MrBoombastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Chennai
Posts: 253
Thanked: 2 Times
Lightbulb It's not the lack of leather and goodies that made me shy....

Simple, the SOHC VTEC didn't have a DOHC VVTi to be pitted against back then.

Moving on... (NOTE: This post is not directed towards anyone or anyone's post prior to this post of mine on this forum, but towards members and guests who would like to know more in regard to the SOHC on the 1.8 Civic that's coming our way )


Although the low reciprocating mass of DOHC valve trains is often touted as their greatest advantage, that is not quite so. A well designed SOHC valvetrain using rocker arms usually has less mess moving up and down than a DOHC system does.

The biggest advantage of the DOHC engine is the STIFFNESS of the valvetrain. With the cam lobe directly depressing a bucket tappet, which, in turn, directly depress the valve stem, there is nothing in the system to deflect. No rocker arms to deflect, no pushrods to buckle slightly, no nothing.

This stiffness allows a DOHC engine to use a more agressive cma profile to pop the valves open more quickly and keep them near their fully open position longer. This in turn promotes breathing.

It also makes for a more tractable engine. In a high performance, single cam, pushrod engine, for example, a cam grind with a very long duration is usually needed in order to get the valves open long enough and far enough to breather properly at high revs. Ironically, at low revs, such a design transfers the cam's long duration to the valves more effectively than it does at high revs, which is why such engines tend to have lumpy idles and very little torque at a low revs.

The DOHC engine, on the other hand, due to its stiff vavle train, does not need such long camshaft durations to achieve useful valve openings at high revs. Consequently, it can idle smoothly and pull strongly throughout the rev range.

DOHC designs have another advantage when coupled with four-valve cylinder heads. It allows the spark plug to be placed smack in the center of the combustion chamber, which promotes efficient combustion and reduces the engine's taste for high octane fuel. With an SOHC engine, the camshaft is usually in the middle of the head, precluding this optimal plug location.

DOHC designs do cost more, but their advantages in power and combustion efficiency make them beneficial even for non-sporting cars. Which is why they have become available on Toyota Corollas and Ford Contours.

Source: http://www.jag-lovers.org/e-type/perf.html

Having brought this to light, do I think the Honda Civic will sell/ capture the Indian market (at least for it's initial years after it's launch)? 100% YES!! The Civic will sell like hot cakes and will send Toyota, Skoda and all other players in this segment running for cover... Well, apart from the Skoda diesels.
MrBoombastic is offline  
Old 1st July 2006, 18:13   #230
Senior - BHPian
 
Shan2nu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hubli - Karnata
Posts: 5,525
Thanked: 87 Times
Default

Quote:
DOHC designs do cost more, but their advantages in power and combustion efficiency make them beneficial even for non-sporting cars. Which is why they have become available on Toyota Corollas and Ford Contours.
Agreed, but when a SOHC Vtec shows more power output than a DOHC VVTi, who's complaining?

Why make the Civic more expensive, than what it already is?

And if i'm not wrong, even the Accord V6 is a SOHC.

Shan2nu
Shan2nu is offline  
Old 1st July 2006, 18:20   #231
BANNED
 
mclaren1885's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bangalore (the city of modded cars) !!
Posts: 4,821
Thanked: 28 Times
Infractions: 0/1 (10)
Default

How about doing a comparo between SOHC's and DOHC's in various categories ?? That in itself should clear out a lot of doubts over cars being sold in india .. Agreed that DOHC's do have their own advantages as opposed to SOHC's but at the same time SOHC's will have their own distinct advantages too ..

That said , i know quite a lot of guys who swear by the twin cam heads by suzis in bangalore .. We might see with the advent of the super swifts the entry of twin cam heads from maruti too .. Honda i guess would still stick onto SOHC's .. All we can do is wait and watch ..
mclaren1885 is offline  
Old 1st July 2006, 18:28   #232
Senior - BHPian
 
Shan2nu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hubli - Karnata
Posts: 5,525
Thanked: 87 Times
Default

Quote:
How about doing a comparo between SOHC's and DOHC's in various categories ??
Actually, this isn't about DOHC vs SOHC. The discussion here is "Should the Civic have been launched with a DOHC".

My point is, when a SOHC can do the job, why go in for the more expensive engine? As it is, it's the most powerful "NA" car in it's class.

Shan2nu
Shan2nu is offline  
Old 1st July 2006, 20:01   #233
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: BLR
Posts: 32
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

Was at Dakshin Honda today (Bangy) , saw Civics getting offloaded from the transport trucks!

The HORN button of the Civic is all set & ready to be abused by the Indian drivers!
microhit is offline  
Old 1st July 2006, 21:40   #234
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ghaziabad
Posts: 94
Thanked: Once
Default

Civic looks amazing................. 10 out of 10 to it in styling........
ankit.agl is offline  
Old 1st July 2006, 23:46   #235
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ghaziabad
Posts: 94
Thanked: Once
Default

what would be the expected waiting time for getting the delivery of civic????
ankit.agl is offline  
Old 2nd July 2006, 04:58   #236
Senior - BHPian
 
devarshi84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ahmedabad - Tor
Posts: 3,996
Thanked: 118 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu
Actually, this isn't about DOHC vs SOHC. The discussion here is "Should the Civic have been launched with a DOHC".

My point is, when a SOHC can do the job, why go in for the more expensive engine? As it is, it's the most powerful "NA" car in it's class.

Shan2nu
Shan2nu no offence. BUt its just a case of satisfying self with something inferior bcoz the manufacturer didnt bring in the right stuff.

I dunno why all the manuacturers still treat India as a young market. I guess its matured pretty much and ready for the right models.

Last edited by devarshi84 : 2nd July 2006 at 04:59.
devarshi84 is offline  
Old 2nd July 2006, 07:14   #237
BHPian
 
ranjan united's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Windsor, Canada... But still a Bombay-Boy at heart !!!
Posts: 409
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu
Actually, this isn't about DOHC vs SOHC. The discussion here is "Should the Civic have been launched with a DOHC".

My point is, when a SOHC can do the job, why go in for the more expensive engine?
Becoz the more expensive engine also happens to be the better engine. Is there even gonna be a choice for the engines? I dont think so. Honda most probarbly thinks tht Indians would not like the mileage tht the DOHC would give.
ranjan united is offline  
Old 2nd July 2006, 08:37   #238
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,953
Thanked: 15,642 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by devarshi84
Shan2nu no offence. BUt its just a case of satisfying self with something inferior bcoz the manufacturer didnt bring in the right stuff.

I dunno why all the manuacturers still treat India as a young market. I guess its matured pretty much and ready for the right models.
The right stuff? Well nobody is bringing in the right stuff. Why doesn't the Swift have a 150BHP engine, why doesnt the lancer have a screaming EVO engine, why is it that hyundai santro has no turbocharging.
All manufacturers are looters. Lets make min 200BHP engine a requirement NOW!

To answer the why, its not really difficult. The manufacturer will bring what people will buy. Including the people who moan and bitch about the lower power. Honda could have got a bigger better engine, but then it would push up the cost and then people will moan how expensive the civic is.

The manufacturers are not here to to charity. They are here to sell cars.
So as long as they sell a reliable car with a reasonable amount of money, its okay. I would rather have a slower car which takes me to office every day rather than a scorcher which after prooving itself at a dragrace at the traffic lights breaks down, or causes a near cardiac arrest at the fuel station.

If you want performance there are lot of other options. But moaning about an "entry level people's luxury car" not having something bigger is like moaning that your maruti 800 does not win any drag races
tsk1979 is offline  
Old 2nd July 2006, 09:51   #239
Senior - BHPian
 
Shan2nu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hubli - Karnata
Posts: 5,525
Thanked: 87 Times
Default

Quote:
Shan2nu no offence. BUt its just a case of satisfying self with something inferior bcoz the manufacturer didnt bring in the right stuff.
Well, every car sold here is inferior to what you get abroad. How is the RS satisfying when it comes with 30bhp less (probably the highest drop in power among Indian cars)? How is the Camry satisfying when it doesn't have a V6 variant (when Honda and Hyundai have them)? How is it satisfying when a 120bhp Invex comes with a 4 speed gearbox? (Even a M800 has 5) The list goes on.....

Every car has something that you'd want it to have and yet, people don't seem to mind. It's the same thing with the Civic. Not buying it, just bcoz it's not a DOHC would be foolish (and i know people aren't gonna fall for this).

Shan2nu
Shan2nu is offline  
Old 2nd July 2006, 10:28   #240
Senior - BHPian
 
devarshi84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ahmedabad - Tor
Posts: 3,996
Thanked: 118 Times
Default

well I didnt target Honda. Did I? read my post again. I am targeting all the manufacturers in the Indian market right now.

Its not a matter of not buying a car because it doesnt have DOHC engine, because its old, because its got 4-speed gearbox.

Itsa matter of being considered equal.

Why do we not get the civic si?

Why dont we get lancer ralliart Mivec?

Why dont we get suzuki liana?

Well as it is a civic thread.Lets get back to the topic.

Civic sure will be a huge seller. If it gets teh Paddle shifters.

Last edited by devarshi84 : 2nd July 2006 at 10:30.
devarshi84 is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Finally Finally Finally!!! sudeep.bansal Introduce yourself 7 26th June 2013 23:04
Finally finally finally finally... s4ch Introduce yourself 3 29th March 2012 19:44
Finally some Civic Sense. My 15k kms, CIVIC 1.8 S M/T. Named Valentino. danlalan Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports 22 14th October 2011 20:51
Honda City Vs Honda Civic E Vs Honda Civic V (pre-owned) drkunaldas Sedans 4 31st October 2010 18:07
Finally, finally , finally..after 2applications. I am here!! Fordmanchau Introduce yourself 4 22nd July 2009 15:20


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 07:27.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks