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Old 11th September 2007, 10:11   #106
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How does build quality matter to me except that it should be safe and reliable. VW may be known for its build quality (even that is now increasingly being questioned) but so are Toyota and Honda. But unlike VW, Toyota and Honda are also reputed for being highly reliable. I really do not know what aspects of build quality is being referred to. Is it safety. Then both Camry and Accord have 5 stars and highest ratings from NHTSA and IIHS. Is it heaviness? Then I want heaviness and integrity only if it is more safer and does not reduce FE. Both Camry and Accord have that and higher FE than Passat. Most of all if it is reliability, then Passat is truly licked. Bottomline: Worldwide, customers vote for build quality with their money, and not go with the opinions of journos just back from an all expenses paid trips to Europe. In the fiercest competitive market, US, where build quality, FE, and long-term reliability is the most important factor, Passat trails Camry and Accord by miles. In Europe, because of vestiges of protectionism, Passat is a `German champ', just as Fiat is an Italian champ, and Renault is a French champ. Are these companies global leaders like Toyota and Honda. To belabour the sales figure again, here are the US sales for all cars in Passat segment for 2006:

Camry 448445
Accord 354441
Passat 54208
Sonata 149513
Mercury Milan 35853
Chevy Malibu 163853
Nissan Altima 232457
Subaru Legacy 84442
Saturn Aura 19746
Chrysler Sebring 69357
Buick LaCrosse 71072
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Old 11th September 2007, 10:28   #107
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Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
How does build quality matter to me except that it should be safe and reliable. VW may be known for its build quality (even that is now increasingly being questioned) but so are Toyota and Honda. But unlike VW, Toyota and Honda are also reputed for being highly reliable. I really do not know what aspects of build quality is being referred to. Is it safety. Then both Camry and Accord have 5 stars and highest ratings from NHTSA and IIHS. Is it heaviness? Then I want heaviness and integrity only if it is more safer and does not reduce FE. Both Camry and Accord have that and higher FE than Passat. Most of all if it is reliability, then Passat is truly licked. Bottomline: Worldwide, customers vote for build quality with their money, and not go with the opinions of journos just back from an all expenses paid trips to Europe. In the fiercest competitive market, US, where build quality, FE, and long-term reliability is the most important factor, Passat trails Camry and Accord by miles. In Europe, because of vestiges of protectionism, Passat is a `German champ', just as Fiat is an Italian champ, and Renault is a French champ. Are these companies global leaders like Toyota and Honda. To belabour the sales figure again, here are the US sales for all cars in Passat segment for 2006:

Camry 448445
Accord 354441
Passat 54208
Sonata 149513
Mercury Milan 35853
Chevy Malibu 163853
Nissan Altima 232457
Subaru Legacy 84442
Saturn Aura 19746
Chrysler Sebring 69357
Buick LaCrosse 71072

I dont know what you are trying to tell us but from your above posts I can come to a conclusion that you are some kinda marketing person for either HONDA or TOYOTA.Period. But belive me am a proud owner of Honda V6 since 2005 and my next car is a Volkswagen Passat. I belive it is placed in the right market segment and now thank GOD am getting a better car than Laura...that is a better engine,more comfort,better looks and better everything and to top it all a Volkswagen badge!! If it was not for Volkswagen, people would'nt have seen or tasted Skodas in India!
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Old 11th September 2007, 10:53   #108
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Originally Posted by vittalnrv
I can come to a conclusion that you are some kinda marketing person for either HONDA or TOYOTA.Period.
I am sorry that you have come to the wrong conclusion, and that is it. By that yardstick, all reputed world auto journos and consumer orgs. get their food from these companies. I have only quoted the facts and sales which unfortunately paint an entirely different picture than what VW PR in India would have us believe. Congrats to you on on your next purchase.

Last edited by aah78 : 11th September 2007 at 20:09. Reason: quote edited
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Old 11th September 2007, 10:55   #109
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It would be interesting to know how many Asian immigrants in US buy Camry/Accord vs the rest. No offense meant but Passat is more aspirational than Camry/Accord - though Camry/Accord are probably better cars overall.
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Old 11th September 2007, 11:15   #110
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It would be interesting to know how many Asian immigrants in US buy Camry/Accord vs the rest. No offense meant but Passat is more aspirational than Camry/Accord - though Camry/Accord are probably better cars overall.
This myth must also be busted. Last year according to data by NADA, of the total 16.45 million cars and light trucks sold in the US, the US 3 sold 9.06 million for 55% share. The so called Asian 3-Toyota, Honda, and Nissan-sold 3.73 million or 23%. VW sold 0.33 million or 2% share. Hyundai also sold 0.33 million or 2% share. Does that mean that that Asians account for 25% of all car purchases in the US. Read any US industry publication of repute, and you will find that US/European makers are losing market share at a faster rate than in history which can in no way be explained by so called Asian purchases. In US, Europe and other countries, there is always patriotism, ie buy American, buy European, buy Indian. But in the US, unlike in the past, Toyota and Honda are as American (ie more cars are built in US by US citizens) as the detroit 3. This alongwith their product line (more FE cars and lesser fuel guzzling SUVs) and higher reliability has enabled them to gain acceptance amongst the `whites'. Altogether, the Detroit 3 domestic brands lost nearly 800,000 units in sales in 2006. These numbers are no mere abstraction. They equate to about four assembly plants and 1,000 dealerships, based on the average throughput of a US store. And Toyota and Honda continues to pile on the pressure. While GM and Ford are scrambling to close plants (even their most productive ones), Toyota is announcing plans for new plants.
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Old 11th September 2007, 11:40   #111
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Which of the following is a myth?
Asian immigrants buy Toyota/Honda - with VERY few exceptions.
Passat is more aspirational than Camry/Accord.

These are more like axioms - so no number theories required :-)
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Old 11th September 2007, 11:45   #112
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Apart from sales figure, here is another stat on build quality and recall info for Passat, Camry, and Accord for last 2 yrs: (Detailed data is available at NHTSA)

Passat:

Volkswagen Passat Recall Information - VW Recalls & Problems

Camry:

Toyota Camry Recall Information - Toyota Recalls & Problems

Accord:

Honda Accord Recall Information - Honda Recalls & Problems
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Old 11th September 2007, 12:07   #113
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More data on build quality and recalls in the US are available on NHTSA.

Passat sold 54208 in US in 2006. For model year 2007 there were 116091 cars recalled, as compared with 116106 in model year 2006, and 1021284 in 2005.

Here is the recall info for passat, Camry and Accord for model year 2007, 2006, 2005
Passat Camry Accord
Sales in 2006 54208 448445 354441
Recalls
2007 116091 133 0
2006 116106 4503 1486877
2005 1021284 150061 815606
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Old 11th September 2007, 12:54   #114
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Wow...
Awsome data Vasudeva!

And Kudos to Toyota - their recalls seem to be related to seat belts and air-bags stuff. Nothing related to engine, brakes, etc....

8 lack units of Camry and Accord together sold versus 55000 Passats!

For those who care more about ethnicity than technology - 10.3 lacks of Japs sold (how can we forget Nissan)

But, IMO, demographic analysis of Toyota and Honda customer population (that too by an Indian) shows how lowly we, Indians, think of ourselves.

Why not think of it this way - if Indians prefer product A over B, then A MUST be better because Indians are cost and quality savvy and spend their hard earned money very carefully.
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Old 11th September 2007, 12:58   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
More data on build quality and recalls in the US are available on NHTSA.

Passat sold 54208 in US in 2006. For model year 2007 there were 116091 cars recalled, as compared with 116106 in model year 2006, and 1021284 in 2005.

Here is the recall info for passat, Camry and Accord for model year 2007, 2006, 2005
Passat Camry Accord
Sales in 2006 54208 448445 354441
Recalls
2007 116091 133 0
2006 116106 4503 1486877
2005 1021284 150061 815606
Sir,your a very senior person to me,respect.I know number talks everywhere but why criticize the car so much even before it is launched in India? Even tough you speak numbers here it is not going to stop the Indians from buying this beauty...or for what about the Skoda Laura,, just see how many electrical problems creep in after few thousand kilometers but still people buy the car.It is not the problem of the manufacturer giving a faulty car, it is we who are living in problems and should learn to live by it!!
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Old 11th September 2007, 13:10   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post

But, IMO, demographic analysis of Toyota and Honda customer population (that too by an Indian) shows how lowly we, Indians, think of ourselves.

Why not think of it this way - if Indians prefer product A over B, then A MUST be better because Indians are cost and quality savvy and spend their hard earned money very carefully.
Two hundred years of colonial mis-rule had to show itself up somewhere no ?

Quote:
Here is the recall info for passat, Camry and Accord for model year 2007, 2006, 2005
Passat Camry Accord
Sales in 2006 54208 448445 354441
Recalls
2007 116091 133 0
2006 116106 4503 1486877
2005 1021284 150061 815606
there bursts the 'exceptional build quality' .. sic.. bubble.
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Old 11th September 2007, 17:03   #117
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What are the 0-100 figures for Passat?
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Old 11th September 2007, 18:46   #118
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What are the 0-100 figures for Passat?
Its 9.8 for the Manual,, so maybe a 10.XX for the DSG
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Old 11th September 2007, 20:40   #119
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Here's how Porsche learned from Toyota and .... VW.

The Sep 3, 2007 Business Week had an article on Porsche. It says that its present CEO's Wiedeking's emphasis on churning out high-performance cars that are as durable as Japanese sedans is a key factor in Porsche's success. To revive the near-bankrupt company when he took over in 1993, Wiedeking dispatched his engineers to Japan to study Toyota’s manufacturing processes, and it paid off with dramatic improvements in quality and cost. For the past two years the brand ranked No. 1 in JD Power’s survey of initial quality (based on problems in the first three months of ownership). And the 911 coupe had just 69 problems per 100 cars--the best in the industry.

Now how it fared with VW. In 2009, Porsche plans to introduce a four-door coupe called the Panamera. The last time Porsche added a model, the Cayenne SUV in 2003, its reputation for quality took a hit. The Cayenne shares parts and technology with VW's Touareg, and the bodies of both are produced at a Volkswagen plant in Slovakia. Early versions of the car were riddled with defects, plunging Porsche to No. 29 in JD Power's 2007 survey of reliability over three years. The SUV suffered from wind noise, poor radio reception, glitches in its door locks and keyless entry system, and condensation in the headlights. But Porsche quickly made some design tweaks and worked with suppliers to resolve those issues. Cayenne buyers this year reported 125 problems per 100 vehicles in JD Power's initial quality survey, down from 233 per 100 in 2004.
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Old 11th September 2007, 20:49   #120
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The July 23, 2007 issue of Business Week also had an article about VW that may make interesting reading:

Rx for VW USA

It says that although VW has a very young buyer’s profile, and although as much love as Volkswagen fans have had for the brand, since 2000 owners have become more vociferous on the Internet about their problems. They are increasingly less willing to put up with bad service and problems that land their cars in the shop.

VW executives jokingly refer to glitchy vehicles as "Monday cars," which are cars built by workers on Monday morning after a weekend of revelry. VW ranks in the bottom fifth of JD Power's rankings for initial quality (first three months), vehicle dependability (first three years of ownership), and sales satisfaction (service).

In conclusion, it notes that VW has undergone a huge change in management and ownership in the last nine months. There is a new chairman in Winterkorn. And Porsche now holds a controlling stake in VW, which gives it a lot of say at the board level on policy and product investments. Jacoby's strength, besides having turned around VW's brand in parts of Europe, is that he has enormous credibility with VW's decision-makers back home. In other words, he is supposed to be able to get what he needs to fix the U.S. part of the business. The question will be whether this German executive will ask for things Americans value most.
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