Commercial Vehicle Thread

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by AMATMO

does anybody know why isuzu stopped selling trucks in india?

They had a JV with Hindustan Motors but the truck introduced in the eighties didn't do well in the market. I think it was produced in Gujarat.

[Jomz]

Originally Posted by directinjection

The DMB days were prior to 1970, not 1980!

Telco had set up a full-fledged R&D department (called ERC or Engineering Research Centre) by the time the collaboration with Daimler Benz came to an end in 1969.

The 1210 itself was designed and produced indigenously. It had a direct injection engine whereas the Mercedes truck license produced by Tata earlier had indirect injection engine. 1210 was more fuel efficient and also more powerful than the Mercedes truck it replaced.

Any guy who knows a bit of diesel engines know that DI is more fuel effient that IDI. and it doesn't need ERC to unscrew the precombustion chamber, change the pistons and use a different injector and pumps and get a more powerful and torquier engine,

Bad example of Good R & D by tata..

Tell Me more about how 697 achieved Euro 3 and we'll see whether ERC has foriegn collaboration,
Or maybe the Indica V2 engine (Another product of ERC.. without foriegn collaboration???),
Or the safari engine.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by Jomz

Any guy who knows a bit of diesel engines know that DI is more fuel effient that IDI. and it doesn't need ERC to unscrew the precombustion chamber, change the pistons and use a different injector and pumps and get a more powerful and torquier engine,

Bad example of Good R & D by tata..

Tell Me more about how 697 achieved Euro 3 and we'll see whether ERC has foriegn collaboration,
Or maybe the Indica V2 engine (Another product of ERC.. without foriegn collaboration???),
Or the safari engine.

They have some engines that are their own and the "learning" process takes time. Moreover the foreign tie-ups are more towards that goal (I bet started pretty late). Alas what else can be said when "R&D" is regarded as adapting a foreign engine to local conditions.

[rahul_intlad]

Mahindra is almost shouting about with regards to its common rail engined mini bus, The word CRDe is prominently displayed for all to see from a distance even.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by rahul_intlad

Mahindra is almost shouting about with regards to its common rail engined mini bus, The word CRDe is prominently displayed for all to see from a distance even.

Isn't that the scorpio engine?

[rahul_intlad]

Yes its the scorpio engine one which may make its way into the Mahindra bolero[don't know about the Mahindra pick-ups but in all proability they too may go the CRDe way] as well once the 2.2 scorpio is out.

[nitrous]

Originally Posted by rahul

don't know about the Mahindra pick-ups but in all proability they too may go the CRDe way]

With tightening emission norms, they HAVE to!

[Jomz]

Originally Posted by 1100D

They have some engines that are their own and the "learning" process takes time. Moreover the foreign tie-ups are more towards that goal (I bet started pretty late). Alas what else can be said when "R&D" is regarded as adapting a foreign engine to local conditions.

Bur the post by DI said TATA never used any foriegn collaboration or technical assistance or drawings, as far as I understood.

I bet the drawings of the cummins 6 BT is also made by ERC.

Btw the tie up with Hino-AL was from 1970's

Originally Posted by directinjection

CV engines aren't supposed to be speeded up. Low end high torque is what they're supposed to produce. The usual standard worldwide is 2200 RPM. Hino engines are a notable exception to this rule. IIRC, most of their engines are rated at 3200 RPM.

Cummins B 5.9 is rated at 2500 RPM.

Baseless.... in the AL website most of the engines are rated at 2400 rpm.

Please do not post wrong facts.

Originally Posted by directinjection

Copying requires a higher level of expertise than simply borrowing drawings from abroad. Most indigenous R&D efforts begin that way.

Were you in ERC?? I request you to justify the statement. THe cummins 6BT drawings were copied or borrowed from Cummins?? What happened to the indigenious R & D??

Well well..Well....
ONe last remark on the subject.

So who has the better cabs now?? New gen AL or TATA??
For the uninformed I'll post apic of New gen cab here..
So much for better expertise of the famed ERC


And i please request DI to tell me the guy who lend the drawings of this cab to Leyland.





I'm Out of this topic. DI, ERC is great..

a novus for comparison

[tsk1979]

Hmm so the commercial vehicle thread is getting into a AL vs Tata one.
My obervations(as a layman, cause I have no experience or insight into what goes on inside) are mostly based on the media and popular perception
1. South India is a AL stronghold, North India is a Tata stronghold.
2. KSRTC(Kerela) had very old AL buses, private operators had new turbo Tata buses, so the general perception was that Tata buses are better
3. Tata is a media darling, and also a much loved company for giving a "India's own car" and sticking out its neck among the Japs and Koreans, and also putting the Indian automobile industry on the world map
4. In contrast AL is seen as bumbling on. No offence, but if you talk to a transporter(have a few in the family) they swear by Tata.

Regarding R&D, most efforts start by copying engines etc., What matters is the setup now in place and the brand image which comes along.
Tata commercial vehicles is not just Tata, it carries the might of the Tata group. People hear Tata people imagine global takeovers.
In comparison to that AL is just another truck maker.
Tata went from trucks to lousy SuVs to decent cars and MUV/SUVs. Ashok leyland went from trucks to trucks.
Jomz, you are an insider, so you know a lot of stuff, but if you ask the leyman, or somebody from the stock market, they all say put money on Tata.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by Jomz

a novus for comparison

A novus is not even Tata, its Daewoo!

[Jomz]

To acquire Detroit-based Testing Services firmDate:30/4/2007 Published from :Corporate OfficeAshok Leyland, the Indian flagship of the Hinduja Group, has signed a Share Purchase Agreement to acquire 100% of the paid-up capital of Defiance Testing and Engineering Services, Inc (DTE) based near Detroit, Michigan, USA. DTE is a well established organization engaged in providing independent testing services for leading Auto OEM’s and their Tier 1 and Tier 2 suppliers. DTE’s capabilities are in the areas of Laboratory-based testing and data acquisition, Simulation durability testing, NVH Testing, Road Load Data Acquisition, Safety Testing and Facilities Management and test laboratory consulting. DTE has been a successful and profitable organization.
The purchase price of the transaction is US $ 17 million.
DTE is currently owned by GenTek Inc, USA, a publicly traded company in NASDAQ, which is primarily engaged in the manufacture of industrial components including precision engineered components for valve-train systems and performance chemicals.
Ashok Leyland through its Ashley Design and Engineering Services Division (ADES) is already engaged in providing design and engineering services to the automobile industry and also to customers in the industrial machines and power generation sectors.
The acquisition of the testing facilities of DTE located near Detroit, will help ADES to enlarge the existing customer base and serve the leading auto makers in the US, and provide the ability to offer greater integrated value added service propositions from engineering design and development, to testing.
Ashok Leyland believes that together with DTE’s existing assets and testing facilities and using the synergy with ADES, DTE would target higher value-added business with the existing customers and also new customers.
The acquisition is subject to completion of the agreed closing conditions and further corporate and statutory approvals from both GenTek and Ashok Leyland. The closing is expected to be completed by the end of May 2007.

[Jomz]

Ashok Leyland to acquire AVIA Truck business
Czech LCV company to be window to Europe
Date:19/7/2006
Published from :Corporate Office
Date :July 19, 2006
Published from : Corporate Office Ashok Leyland, the Indian flagship of the Hinduja Group, has signed a framework agreement to acquire the Truck Business Unit of AVIA a.s. in Prague. Headquartered at Prague, AVIA makes the D Line trucks in the 6T to 9T GVW range and has marketing footprints in Europe. The acquisition covers the facility at the heart of the Czech capital, with an annual production capacity of 20,000 vehicles, which is supported by a state-of-the-art cataphoretic paint shop and R&D facilities. The sale is subject to the completion of certain conditions as well as corporate and statutory approvals by both Ashok Leyland and AVIA. It is expected that the acquisition will take place by the end of August 2006.

“AVIA is part of our inorganic growth plan and is a significant step in securing a beachhead in the European Union and the Eastern European markets. The acquisition will also give us a modern, international vehicle for our light and medium commercial vehicle range of trucks for India and other export markets”, said Mr. R. Seshasayee, Managing Director of Ashok Leyland. The strategic location of AVIA also opens up possibilities of using its facilities as an assembly and marketing base for some of Ashok Leyland's future products on the anvil.

Since their launch in 2001, the D series trucks consisting of 6T, 7.5T and 9T GVW models are marketed in the Czech Republic, Hungary, UK, Ireland, Italy, Slovakia and Spain. With a width of 2.15 mtrs, the D series trucks have a modern, compact cabin with both day and sleeper versions. They are powered by 150 hp / 170 hp Cummins ISB engines and feature ZF 5.42 and ZF 6S 850 gearboxes.




In early June, AVIA unveiled D120, a 12 tonne model as well as D110 and D100, 11 tonne and 10 tonne models respectively. The new models also feature the all-new 4.5 L Cummins ISB Euro IV engine with Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) technology. The new Cummins engines offer power outputs of 140 hp, 160 hp and 185 hp.
Spelling out Ashok Leyland's plans for AVIA, Mr R. Seshasayee mentioned that although the present volume of sales from AVIA was limited, there was a good potential to scale up, through new markets such as the Middle East, South East Asia, Russia and Ukraine and by consolidating and strengthening existing dealership arrangements in Europe. He expressed confidence that there was potential to save material costs through component / aggregate sourcing out of low cost countries. The planned scale up of AVIA operations will absorb the current strength of around 275 employees. New products from the Ashok Leyland range, in line with market expansion plans to be drawn up, will be inducted into the AVIA portfolio, in due course.

Started as an aircraft and engine manufacturer in 1919, AVIA diversified later into trucks and signed licence agreement with Renault in 1967. In 1995, 50.2% share in AVIA was acquired by Daewoo Motor Corporation Ltd, which invested to upgrade AVIA's production capabilities and product technology to international standards, leading to the launch of the D Line trucks. Though the D Line truck built good brand equity in the European market, the bankruptcy of Daewoo in 2000 affected the fortunes of the company. In 2005, SGM International, a subsidiary of Odien Capital Partners, L.P., took over the company and undertook an aggressive restructuring and investment programme resulting in the company’s revival and expansion of the product range to 12 tonnes.

“It is a very compelling fit. Ashok Leyland will gain a modern truck, design capabilities, and access to the European market and AVIA Truck Business Unit will gain a strategic parent resulting in significant savings in purchasing and access to Ashok Leyland’s existing markets. The strategic rationale and the combined capabilities under Ashok Leyland ownership have the potential to make AVIA Trucks a global player”, said Mr. Michael Saran, Chairman of AVIA, a.s.

BACKGROUND INFORMATION About AVIA.:
AVIA, a.s. is an Odien Group company. AVIA, a.s., based in Prague, Czech Republic was founded as an aircraft and engine manufacturer in 1919. With 400 employees working in its production facilities in Prague, AVIA is comprised of three business units: TBU, OEM, and REN. The company produces and sells trucks with GVW vehicles ranging from 6 to 12 tonnes through its Truck Business Unit (TBU), supplies machined and pressed products to customers primarily in the transport sector through its Original Equipment (OEM) Business Unit, and manages the company’s real estate and other holdings through its REN Business Unit. Following an aggressive restructuring program and supported by investment capital from Odien and active management participation, AVIA underwent a significant revitalization and new product development program in 2005 and early 2006.
About Odien: Odien Capital Partners L.P. is a private investment firm, which specializes in corporate turnarounds and restructurings. The Odien Group is active in Central and Eastern Europe and has regional offices in Prague and Istanbul

[Jomz]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

3. Tata is a media darling, and also a much loved company for giving a "India's own car" and sticking out its neck among the Japs and Koreans, and also putting the Indian automobile industry on the world map
.
Jomz, you are an insider, so you know a lot of stuff, but if you ask the leyman, or somebody from the stock market, they all say put money on Tata.

I agree to the first point.. And another fact is that leyland doesn't advertise much about in products in print and TV. So it is quite possible that TATA will be a media darling. The media doesn't get much $$$'s from Leyland.

AL has never made a loss since 1947- itz inception, and it doesn't take much risks liike TATA, but it tries hard to keep itz ground. I think share market brands AL as a safe company to invest on, while TATA is slightly risky. AL didn't make a loss even during itz Cargo model times, when the model slumped.

[madan80]

well - from the site for tata and AL - it appears that for daily drives (like public transpor etc) AL seems to have a stronghold as pre-fab busses. However, tata's forte seems to be in long distance. (again, this is from a laymans perspective).

slightly OT - Howmuch does a bus cost?

[n_aditya]

Originally Posted by madan80

How much does a bus cost?

Heard that the volvo's cost excess of 70 lakhs. Got this info from the driver himself.