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Old 10th July 2007, 13:12   #16
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Originally Posted by theMAG View Post
At face-value, this move makes sense. But I wonder if there's 2 sides to the coin here as well.
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Right !! even i sense something fishy here.

Just to increase the influx of Korean manufacturers in India.

First Chinese now Koreans ....... Indian businessmen are hit big time.

Indians kaha se paisa kamaye ?
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Old 10th July 2007, 13:54   #17
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I am in agreement with tsk and Steeroid. At the end of the day we should get what works. At the same time I am sad and disappointed that it is Indian vendors that are getting the stick. :(
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Old 10th July 2007, 14:48   #18
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What no one is answering is how are other car makers maintaining their international quality with Indian vendors while Hyundai cries about those same Indian vendors. And let's not worship Hyundai for making India a export hub. They are not doing us a favour. It's financially profitable to them and therefore they are doing it. If tomorrow China or Vietnam or Timbaktoo become more profitable centers for them, they will move there. As for the Chinese, I say bring them on. Whose scared of them?
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Old 10th July 2007, 14:59   #19
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
What no one is answering is how are other car makers maintaining their international quality with Indian vendors while Hyundai cries about those same Indian vendors. And let's not worship Hyundai for making India a export hub. They are not doing us a favour. It's financially profitable to them and therefore they are doing it. If tomorrow China or Vietnam or Timbaktoo become more profitable centers for them, they will move there. As for the Chinese, I say bring them on. Whose scared of them?
which other companies are you talking about.
1. Hyundai is not going to fully import cars, just a few components will be chinese
2. Other companies are also sourcing parts globally. Honda and Toyota have substantial non Indian components
3. Even Tata has gone to chinese for many parts dumping Indian vendors because quality was not good.
Nobody is worshiping Hyundai. What Hyundai is doing is done by Tata, Honda, Toyota, Ford, Maruti.
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Old 10th July 2007, 15:20   #20
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Other companies are also sourcing parts globally. Honda and Toyota have substantial non Indian components
3. Even Tata has gone to chinese for many parts dumping Indian vendors because quality was not good.
Of course Honda, Toyota etc etc have a lot of imported parts but they also have a lot of Indian parts. I am sure these companies share a lot of parts that are sourced from India. Purely as an example, Honda, Toyota, Ford and Hyundai must be sourcing seats, or suspensions, steering systems etc from Indian vendors. Now if Honda doesn't have any quality issues with Indian vendors supplying them a particular part why does Hyundai? And if Hyundai is having problems with some vendors, whats stopping them from taking their business to anther vendor? But saying that my Indian vendor is not able to supply good quality so I am going to bring over korean part makers sounds stupid to me. Are they trying to say that for a particular part they are not able to find a single good quality vendor in the whole of India??? Doesn't that seem a wee bit ridiculous to any of you? For every Hyundai or Tata, there are plenty of other car makers that come down to India to source parts for their products from here citing reasons of cost and quality. Maybe they are stupid while Hyundai and Tata are the only geniuses out here. As for Tata going to the Chinese because Indian vendors don't have quality, did the Chinese help improve their quality? It's amazing to me that there are so many people actually buying this Hyundai BS. If they have started having quality issues, it's their job to sort it out. Instead they have coolly blamed the Indian vendors for their shortcomings.

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Originally Posted by typeOnegative View Post
At the end of the day we should get what works.
You are not getting what works. You are going to get what works for the Koreans. Hyundai is forcing you to accept Korean part makers. They should just make an announcement that they want to help their countries businessmen.

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The quality of components depends, to an extent, on the auto manufacturers specifications. They lay the guidelines and specify standards and they usually reserve the right to reject products.
Thank You!

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Just to increase the influx of Korean manufacturers in India.
Thank God some people realise whats happening!

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Originally Posted by typeOnegative View Post
At the end of the day we should get what works.
Today it's Indian vendors, tomorrow it will be Indian workers. Tomorrow Hyundai will put the blame on their quality issues on the Indian assembly line workers and say they are going to bring Koreans to do the job. I am sure there will be plenty of people who will buy that BS too.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 10th July 2007 at 15:32.
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Old 10th July 2007, 15:42   #21
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I don't get what the point here is? Are we supposed to be worried that Hyundai are sourcing door & window beadings or maybe an ash tray from Korea?

Shouldn't we look at the fact that they are investing a huge sum of money into India to actually make the darn cars in the first place? The jobs they are providing to labourers, factory workers, transporters...the list is huge.
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We had so, so many... discussions with them to improve the quality, they did not show any willingness
I think this line says it all, and I can surely vouch for this sort of attitude here. Many suppliers are just not bothered unless it is their sole revenue earning source.

At the end of the day, every company wants to make the most amount of money after investing the least. Obviously Hyundai have a reason for doing what they are doing. Maybe they gave the Indian suppliers a chance to improve their quality but the price charged for this was higher that what it would be back in Korea, so it makes plain economical sense for them to import that part.

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Today it's Indian vendors, tomorrow it will be Indian workers. Tomorrow Hyundai will put the blame on their quality issues on the Indian assembly line workers and say they are going to bring Koreans to do the job.
If it is true, why not? Why do we love to buy German cars and products? Why do we all want to buy the Sony camera which is "Made in Japan" and not China? Because we feel the quality differs. we are always quick to judge others, but refuse to accept our own problems.

It's a fact that generally, we only start working hard once we find our jobs are in danger. So maybe this move by Hyundai will actually benefit us in the long run, as the suppliers will be forced to wake up and improve.

Last edited by Rtech : 10th July 2007 at 15:44.
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Old 10th July 2007, 15:47   #22
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Hey Amit, chill maar yaar.

I think if the Indian vendors in question are able to ramp up it would make more sense to keep them on rather than getting the stuff done from Korea. Obviously Hyundai has either been complacent and got into a position where their vendors don't give a hoot. So if it works for them, then so be it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit
Today it's Indian vendors, tomorrow it will be Indian workers. Tomorrow Hyundai will put the blame on their quality issues on the Indian assembly line workers and say they are going to bring Koreans to do the job. I am sure there will be plenty of people who will buy that BS too.
I am sure if things become bad, Tata Motors would not mind hiring Chinese/Korean/Eskimo workers. Afterall, what is the reason Indian skills are in such demand abroad especially in IT?
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Old 10th July 2007, 15:59   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
Today it's Indian vendors, tomorrow it will be Indian workers. Tomorrow Hyundai will put the blame on their quality issues on the Indian assembly line workers and say they are going to bring Koreans to do the job. I am sure there will be plenty of people who will buy that BS too.
Umm this will not happen.
You see, in todays cut throat competition and globalization era, companies will try to get the best quality car at the lowest price.
Why is it at a certain car is 70% localized when it can be 100% localized. You save on duty right. The reason is that the manufacturer wants a mix of quality and VFM.
Local OEM suppliers are protected to an extent by import duties, if that was not the case Honda/Hyundai/Toyota will import full cars and sell the likes of Accord for 8-9 lakhs. But you do not see that happening.
You also do not see a Honda or Toyota with 100% indian parts even though there are OEM suppliers in India which can manage that.
So it comes to cost/value balance.
As for "Giving local business from korea preference etc.," let me tell you one thing. Business is highly highly patriotic towards its god. The god of business is money. So if Hyundai can make the same quality car with cheaper parts from India, they will not go out. Thats why tenders are floated.
As for not finding any OEM suppliers, its entirely possible that there exists an OEM supplier who can make world class rubber beadings, but is already running at max capacity.
So if Hyundai decides to get patriotic towards Korea and make cars at a higher initial cost, they will get booted out of the market.
In the end all the customer cares is
1. How much I am paying for a car
2. How much car I am getting for that money.
If Tata made an all Indian indica and said "Be patriotic fellas and buy it for 6 lakhs" would people flock to Tata?
In the market things like country etc., go for a Toss, its all a money game.
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Old 10th July 2007, 16:24   #24
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I see nothing wrong with outsourcing stuff to other countries. Even if it is indeed Korea or China or Timbuktu.

Every manufacture Indian or Foreign is having quality control issues. I can point out Hyundai, Honda, Maruti all having issues with Indian vendors. And its about time we admit that most of us are lousy, take things for granted and want to make money whether it defies our ethics or not.

Infact, ask some of Tata owners who will point out to you the number of parts outsourced from Indian vendors failing on their cars. Amit, infact I would be surprised if you were to name one manufacturer in India who is not having faults with Indian vendors.

Let me get to facts. Indian made (MGP) OE head gaskets for the Baleno's are pathetic. Given the fact that I had to replace gaskets after gaskets. Agreed my car is not stock. But a similar headgasket available off the shelf at any Maruti showroom with a SGP tag on it serves like a dream.

At one point MUL decided to make MGP AC units for the baleno as a part of localization. End result, pathetic AC working. Today, I have no AC in my car since we can't locally source one good vendor who can provide the same effect that the Denso unit can. And the Denso costs a whooping 22k, which is something I cannot afford right now.

Baleno's that came as direct imports from Japan or wherever they were manufactured oogle with quality. The very feel of the steering, the dash (my indian dashboard has discoloured in less than a year) on a few earlier cars is still intact, the imported engines were much better. I could go on and on like this.

I am citing examples from a car I own. Others will be able to sight such examples too from various other manufac's.

Its just a pity that people always try to find faults with Hyundai. They are better than most manufacturers in India IMO. They sell good cars, however perspective this may be. They offer terrific A$S. I find the Elantra to be a fabulous car for what it comes with.

Going completely OT from automobiles I know for a fact that a few Indian vendors my dad gets parts from refuse to do anything to improve their quality. Sick and tired he is having to import parts from Germany, China etc. He is into interior designing. Such is the pathetic state of affairs in our country. Its not about being patriotic here, its about having quality control which at the moment we seem to be lacking.

Unless we learn to set our habits right I see nothing will change. We will have more and more parts coming from abroad. At the end of the day if a company is satisfied with a certain product irrespective of where it comes from I see no point we as end customers should be complaining about.

Oh and since we are talking about locals not being given preference the only reason we are driving cars without safety features, outdated pieces of wheels is only because of the fact that our Govt wont allow free access to foreign companies. Unlike Sri Lanka or Pakistan.

PS: As the exemplary rule, you always find exceptions too. I am aware of certain companies who glorify with quality control.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 10th July 2007 at 16:42. Reason: Lets keep Palio out of this, don't want a flame war!
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Old 10th July 2007, 16:52   #25
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I agree what Mclaren says except for his comment on Fiat but the way Fiat's situation in India made us feel like its not reliable at all.

If Fiat and Tata continue to to do good plans and enhance their relationships 2 years down the line I feel they can be number 1 in India over taking MUL.

I am not sure about quality of Santro from last 1 year although there is one Santro top end baught last year in my family the Santro top end I used 2 years back was really awasome. I still curse myself for selling Santro and buying pathetic Swift. I was so happy with my Santro except for bumpy ride especially when I got operated.

My friend who is into designing auotmobile told me Hyundai, Fiat cars are solid and have best build. He rated scorpio also good SUV except for its body roll which is another aspect.

Regards,

Ravi.
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Old 10th July 2007, 16:58   #26
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Ravi, I let my facts do the talking. I would love to mention the issues I had with my Aunt's Palio. But since the mods have requested not to start a flame war I will refrain from providing the details here. Will tell you all about it at the meet. And for the others you can kindly PM to know the issues I am talking about. It will make one redefine the word "build quality" associated with Palio.

PS: Lets get back to topic and not have a Fiat war here. Kindly PM me for further details.
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Old 10th July 2007, 17:01   #27
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ok, What I noticed after seeing good bad things on cars its the unit which has come faulty, I could find lot of issues with my Swift and only issue of bumpy ride on Santro but other people said Santro had many issues and Swift is better car.

So it appears its individual experience and timing!

Hey just now one more thing has come to my mind, I was talking with a guy who used to work in Hyundai told me dealer used to make profit of less than 10,000 on 1 unit of Santro he sell this is 10 years back.

He said this is similar story with all dealers. Thats why they started more localization for better profits, I feel by doing this they forgot quality. Every manufacturer had this quality issues always.

Unfortunately in India there is no proper rule so car owner will suffer from all these. this made me think not to buy single new car in future after seeing few bad strategies of car manufacturer in India to make profits within no time.

I feel TATA is one company not only in automobile area also in other business they do they maintain professionalism and good name.

Ravi.

Last edited by ravibhat : 10th July 2007 at 17:08.
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Old 10th July 2007, 17:08   #28
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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Is the PS supplier Rane? Well if it is then Rane has some serious quality problems in their operation.

Recently i heard about Rane engine valves failing in a new diesel engine that was undergoing tests at the factory.
Rane steerings were also a common failure on the OHC's. According to estimates the failure rate was around 30-40%.
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Old 10th July 2007, 17:10   #29
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So it appears its individual experience and timing! Ravi.
Thats where quality control issues come in my friend. Fiat are lose at it. There are a few bad examples around and someone (rather everyone) ends up with a Lemon if Fiats case!
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Old 10th July 2007, 17:54   #30
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You are not getting what works. You are going to get what works for the Koreans. Hyundai is forcing you to accept Korean part makers. They should just make an announcement that they want to help their countries businessmen.
Yes, and I guess they moved the production of all small cars to India so that their country's businessmen could be 'helped'. Likewise for the Getz and the Pa which will soon have only one worldwide manufacturing base - Chennai.

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Originally Posted by amit View Post
And let's not worship Hyundai for making India a export hub. They are not doing us a favour. It's financially profitable to them and therefore they are doing it. If tomorrow China or Vietnam or Timbaktoo become more profitable centers for them, they will move there. As for the Chinese, I say bring them on. Whose scared of them?
Similarly if its financially profitable for them to use Chinese parts, lets not take them to the cleaners.

And as for who's scared of the Chinaman, we'll see in a few years.

Last edited by Steeroid : 10th July 2007 at 17:56.
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