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Old 17th February 2008, 23:41   #151
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When you are engaged in developing products for the defense of your nation it is wise to use home grown products wherever possible.
Given the clout which India has as a buyer (due to the $$$ spent), most suppliers agree for a technology transfer. E.g. we spent zillions of rupees and came up with a dud called the Arjun MBT and then the Tejas LCA. At the same time, we were able to buy Russian T90 and also manufacture them. The same is true about the Sukhoi.

DRDO is one huge waste of money which makes products that directly go to the dustbin. All those thousands of employees with DRDO should be sacked and the money used for something better.
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Old 18th February 2008, 00:47   #152
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When you are engaged in developing products for the defense of your nation it is wise to use home grown products wherever possible. If you are faced with a situation where you have to fight someone and foreign suppliers do not sanction your cause and cut off your supplies, you are in an impossible situation. Wars are won largely by logistics and mobility. We do not want outside suppliers interfering with this.
Yes it is a good idea if you can produce world class products. Look at some of the third rate products such as the Arjun. I do not want the jawans of our country risking their lives in such a mediocre tank. Would the money have not been better spent buying off the shelf T90's ? I am sure the Russians would not have hesitated in agreeing to technology transfer with a big deal.

As Confucius once said - If you make a mistake and do not correct it, this is called a mistake. To me wasting money on a white elephant like Arjun MBT is nothing but stupidity.
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Old 18th February 2008, 01:31   #153
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Yes it is a good idea if you can produce world class products. Look at some of the third rate products such as the Arjun. I do not want the jawans of our country risking their lives in such a mediocre tank. Would the money have not been better spent buying off the shelf T90's ? I am sure the Russians would not have hesitated in agreeing to technology transfer with a big deal.

As Confucius once said - If you make a mistake and do not correct it, this is called a mistake. To me wasting money on a white elephant like Arjun MBT is nothing but stupidity.
You and SRH have good points. Actually, it may well be that tanks are obsolete anyway and do not provide enough bang for the rupee. Extremely fast, light armored vehicles may be more versatile on a modern battle field if they also have modern weapons platforms and are produced in numbers. This brings us back more on topic. As far as the Russian T90, nothing the Russians have built have fared too well in the Middle East. Regardless of one's politics, this is a bald fact.
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Old 18th February 2008, 01:50   #154
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As far as the Russian T90, nothing the Russians have built have fared too well in the Middle East. Regardless of one's politics, this is a bald fact.
Theres more to the middle east story than that. I think that had more to do with the people handling the weapons rather than the weapons. I bet the same forces would do no better against Isreal if they had american weapons. Russian supplied Iraqi weapons had no problem against Kuwait, probably because the Kuwaitis bricked themselves and fled.

India did not do too badly using Russian weapons against the USA supplied Pakistani forces. The Pak forces are now buying lots of cheap and chearful weapons from China so the Indian force are far better supplied than our foe.

Last edited by bigman : 18th February 2008 at 01:51.
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Old 18th February 2008, 01:54   #155
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Default Even tank to tank, failure

One other thing, the T90 is just an upgraded T72. See Battle of 73 Easting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

for one example of how Russian tanks fare in tank to tank battles where airpower is not a factor. In a word, poorly.

Perhaps the Indian Army can come up with a better answer than Russian built or designed armor. I am ex-Army, by the way, infantry though. One thing I learned right away, any armor does a better job stopping bullets than my cotton shirt.
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Old 18th February 2008, 10:33   #156
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Too much money is wasted in India on thrid rate products which are far from being the best in the world. Look at the Arjun tank, it would have been cheaper to have bought a proven tank than designing something which cost so much and is still unproven. A few years ago they tested it in Rajasthan and the poor soldiers told to drive it were literally frying as the temperature inside was that high. The idiots at the design centre forgot about cooling provision.

A price of 12lakh+ was banded about for the civillian version. This would not use the more expensive foreign parts but usual Mahindra parts.
I don't think Mods appreciate off-topic posts but then I cant let ignorant opinions being passed off as facts without a proper response.

Arjun designers did not forget to put an air-conditioner in the tank, it is the Indian Army requirement to not have an AC (they have their reasons). And for your kind information, the poor soldiers already operate in rajastan desert in non-Ac tanks. You think that the 1000's of T-72's and vyjayanta's in the inventory have AC?

And no, it would not have been cheaper to buy a tank from foreign countries. Any money spent on them is money being sent outside the country as against spending it inside the country and you still end up with a product designed for foreign armies/territories and not for Indian army.

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Look at some of the third rate products such as the Arjun. I do not want the jawans of our country risking their lives in such a mediocre tank.
I am curious, what do you know about Arjun to call it a mediocre tank? Even the Indian army which keeps rejecting the tank (mostly due to arms lobby, the people who tried it like the tank) never said that Arjun is inferior in any regard. Infact the reasons they gave is that it is too heavy for the century old bridges in the west and is too technologically advanced for the ordinary army recruit (usually 10th pass) and that the armies tactics are built around a light tank. Arjun has a superior gun and more PWR than T-90 and better thermals, so where the heck did you get this idea that Arjun is a third rate product?
Sorry for my off-topic rant but please stick to stuff that you know about, like Auto's and leave defense topics alone.

Last edited by Mayavi : 18th February 2008 at 10:41.
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Old 18th February 2008, 11:13   #157
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Gents...I somehow have a huch as to, "are we really competent enough to discuss military" in here????

Guys, let us continue with the automotive gyaan & leave the military to the experts.

Trust me, you will be safe!!
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Old 18th February 2008, 16:49   #158
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I don't think Mods appreciate off-topic posts but then I cant let ignorant opinions being passed off as facts without a proper response.

Arjun designers did not forget to put an air-conditioner in the tank, it is the Indian Army requirement to not have an AC (they have their reasons). And for your kind information, the poor soldiers already operate in rajastan desert in non-Ac tanks. You think that the 1000's of T-72's and vyjayanta's in the inventory have AC?

And no, it would not have been cheaper to buy a tank from foreign countries. Any money spent on them is money being sent outside the country as against spending it inside the country and you still end up with a product designed for foreign armies/territories and not for Indian army.



I am curious, what do you know about Arjun to call it a mediocre tank? Even the Indian army which keeps rejecting the tank (mostly due to arms lobby, the people who tried it like the tank) never said that Arjun is inferior in any regard. Infact the reasons they gave is that it is too heavy for the century old bridges in the west and is too technologically advanced for the ordinary army recruit (usually 10th pass) and that the armies tactics are built around a light tank. Arjun has a superior gun and more PWR than T-90 and better thermals, so where the heck did you get this idea that Arjun is a third rate product?
Sorry for my off-topic rant but please stick to stuff that you know about, like Auto's and leave defense topics alone.
I went to school with someone who is in the arms industry (trader) and he knows his stuff. Via him I have read numerous papers by defence research analysts. Most of them are of the view that the even the old T-72 (with the upgrades) is better than the Arjun. A lot of East European countries had lots of upgraded T-72 available and they could have been had for a song.
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Arjun designers did not forget to put an air-conditioner
Yes but thay have still not resolved the heat issues associated with its powerplant. Not even an idiot would release such a product knowing it has heat problems.

The Arjun is a third rate product. It is way over budget, took too long to deliver (still not finished). It is a poor performer. Its weight has shot up. The heat problems from the engine etc are still unresolved. You can get patriotic and pretend it is a great tank but by world standards it is nothing.

The T72 may get hot but the problem is not compound by engine heat problems like those that occur with the Arjun. They have had heat problems with the thermal system in the T90 which has AC and most of the thermal imagers were not always working 100%. So I doubt the non AC Arjun (known for major heat problems) is going to be any better,

Adding fancy gizmos does not make it any better. You could add a V12 engine to a Maruti but it is still not going to become a supercar.

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And no, it would not have been cheaper to buy a tank from foreign countries. Any money spent on them is money being sent outside the country as against spending it inside the country
If you can buy something cheaper and more reliable elsewhere why waste money on developing something that has proven to be a failure ? You remind me of the Pakistani people who think because they make a tank (from Chinese kit) they are technologically advanced. If you want a sportscar do you buy one off the shelf or do you spend millions desiging one ?

The money saved could be used elsewhere on more worthwhile projects such as improving infrastructure. You would gain more economically by investing in such worthwhile projects than half attempts at designing military hardware.

Last edited by bigman : 18th February 2008 at 16:52.
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Old 18th February 2008, 17:40   #159
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Angry Please dont give sweeping off-topic statements

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Originally Posted by Mayavi View Post
I don't think Mods appreciate off-topic posts but then I cant let ignorant opinions being passed off as facts without a proper response.

....

Sorry for my off-topic rant but please stick to stuff that you know about, like Auto's and leave defense topics alone.
I agree .

@ bigman --> please dont make such sweeping (ill-informed) statements about defence matters. Also , please , i repeat, PLEASE do not try to give economic justifications for your statements : defence-related decisions are taken on other bases which are much more important than just the "economic" ones.

Let us stick to Mahindra Axe related discussions on this thread .

Thanx.
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Old 18th February 2008, 17:51   #160
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I agree .

@ bigman --> please dont make such sweeping (ill-informed) statements about defence matters. Also , please , i repeat, PLEASE do not try to give economic justifications for your statements : defence-related decisions are taken on other bases which are much more important than just the "economic" ones.

Let us stick to Mahindra Axe related discussions on this thread .

Thanx.
So why you going off topic ?

I have given non economic justifications why the Arjun is a 3rd rate tank. Would you buy a car with known overheating problems ? I think not.

If economics was not an issue then the government would never invite tenders. The whole point of tenders is to get an item them meets your designated spec at the best price. So yes economics does play a big role in these decisisons.

Good job the Axe uses a proven design complemented by reliable parts sourced from across the globe.

Last edited by bigman : 18th February 2008 at 17:52.
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Old 5th April 2008, 03:32   #161
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Its copied from Axe used by Israel!! or maybe mahindra obtained a license from them!

מעריב nrg - ה"חיה הרעה" של היחידות המיוחדות - ביטחוני עוד - חדשות

Can anybody translate from hebrew!!

IDF "Axe" vehicle - Military Photos
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Old 5th April 2008, 08:42   #162
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So why you going off topic ?

I have given non economic justifications why the Arjun is a 3rd rate tank. Would you buy a car with known overheating problems ? I think not.

If economics was not an issue then the government would never invite tenders. The whole point of tenders is to get an item them meets your designated spec at the best price. So yes economics does play a big role in these decisisons.

Good job the Axe uses a proven design complemented by reliable parts sourced from across the globe.
bah humbug .. you have just proven yourself to be a complete tool. I mean you are speaking as if you have driven the Arjun tank all your life.

this is a typical macaulayized Indian mindset that thinks by default that parts sourced from across the globe (read made by some white bloke) is very reliable.

the parts used in defence tenders @ best price sourced from across the globe usually are 'trial tested' in India. Which means they carry out the user tests for them or they do 'R&D' at our expense.

On the other hand if they are reliable and tested, then the imported platforms are always extremely expensive.

Last edited by lurker : 5th April 2008 at 08:43.
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Old 5th April 2008, 10:23   #163
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Though off topic, but after reading some of the posts here, I would like to add something.

Peaole here are talking as if they are experts in defence products analysis, be it LCA ot Arjun, probebly based on some article in some newpapers.

Both LCA and Arjun are excellent products with their share of hiccups. They have been long delayed, not because of the scientists failure to develop the product but because of various reasons. The primary reason for the delay is the ever changing requirments of the army and air force. Do you know that the LCA concieved in 1983 is being equiped with some of the latest and best technologies which are being used in the most advanced fighters in the world today. How do you expect an orginazation to produce the best aircraft in the world on the first attempt? LCA is a better aircraft then the chines JF-17 and can match thier J-10, but unforunately the IAF is not satisfied with it and like china we dont have a Pakistan willing to buy our products.

So guys relax, leave the defence to the defence experts and let us discuss Cars.
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Old 6th April 2008, 11:03   #164
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Default AXE from Israel, already being used by IDF

I guess Axe is not original design from mahindra!

Pix courtesy: militaryphotos.net
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Old 6th April 2008, 23:30   #165
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I guess Axe is not original design from mahindra!

Pix courtesy: militaryphotos.net
This has been pointed out earlier, though I'm not sure whether it's in this thread or not. Most of the vehicle seems to be the design of an Israeli off-road enthusiast who normally builds rock-climbing jeeps.

Two versions were showcased in Israel, one (which Israel, and perhaps Indian special forces, would use) with a 4.2L Chevy V8 (petrol) and the other with a Mercedes-derived 2.4L turbodiesel I4 (produced by Ssangyong). Mahindra's materials indicate the same two engine options, with either option mated to a 5-speed Mercedes transmission and other drivetrain components like the axles sourced from Mitsubishi.

Mahindra's main contribution here seems to be getting the design ready for mass production, and modifying it for Indian needs (e.g. body configuration, weapon points, etc.).
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