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Old 13th December 2007, 17:27   #91
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This is not Fair...........

Considering the fact that present day Diesel car pollute less than most of the Petrol cars.
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Old 13th December 2007, 21:06   #92
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Originally Posted by manojgautham View Post
This is not Fair...........

Considering the fact that present day Diesel car pollute less than most of the Petrol cars.
What about Cabbies Diesel cars?
Indica, innova, qualis... Sumo... All Yuck. the way they maintain them. Sometimes i feel like doing this to them.
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Old 13th December 2007, 21:13   #93
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Adulteration is not the only problem. The sulfur content is a major issue.
E-IV norms(the kind being enforced in the US now) require ULSD. Ultra Low Sulfur diesel.
This is 2 problems
1. Refinery upgradation issues
2. Older engines, esp trucks will be damaged if ULSD is used without shifting to modern standard engine oils which compensate for lack of sulfur.
This solution is not easy, but as of now its the only correct solution.

So bad diesel cars. What happens to the thousands of trucks which pass through Delhi at night. At many places the spm levels at night(when there are hardly any cars on road) are higher than daytime spm levels due to overloaded trucks which don't even meet 1990 norms, let alone Euro norms.
1. adulteration - this is a joke as an excuse to ban diesel. It is a bit like "do not build homes coz. thieves may break into them".

2. ULSD - I think the "premium" diesels are low sulphur - not sure of the "ultra" part though.

3. National Permit goods vehicles cannot be more than 12 years old. It is only those vehicle which carry lesser permits which are likely to be so old. It is for the state government to crack down.

Anyway, we need not shed tears if good quality fuel causes damages to ancient relics err. vehicles.
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Old 13th December 2007, 23:33   #94
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Once you establish a standard, people will have to follow the rules. Just like the norms for petrol the car manufacturers had to eventually stop peddling their outdated technologies in India and start giving us updated technology.

Its the same for diesel, the truck manufacturers have had a free ride and now its time to buckle up.

As an aside isn't it strange that without regulation much touted free markets doesn't seem to work in either delivering the best prices or technology cause all the manufacturers appear to form a formal or informal cartel and continue to deliver the barely acceptable. Now that something for freemarket fundamentalists to think about because this happens in every country and all markets. Regulation and effective regulation is absolutely essential.
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Old 13th December 2007, 23:55   #95
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according to me banning diesel is not the answer
The new diesel engines are not harming the environment likes the the one found in indicas.

i read in the news somewhere where it was stated that the pollution level has increased by x% from 2000

So what does theese babu's do-they try to pass a law to ban diesel cars.

From 2000 to 2007-08 the amount of cars in delhi has incresed and not only this there have been a lot of flyovers being made which have resulted in cutting of alot of trees

IMO it is not possible to ban diesel engines just like that
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Old 14th December 2007, 00:28   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
So bad diesel cars. What happens to the thousands of trucks which pass through Delhi at night. At many places the spm levels at night(when there are hardly any cars on road) are higher than daytime spm levels due to overloaded trucks which don't even meet 1990 norms, let alone Euro norms.
I am seriously sick of this argument.

Can someone quantify this with real data?

Might be true at NH24, where there is crawling/excess idling. Elsewhere, say ashram, is that true? I would want to see numbers before I buy any such argument

You miss out the endless taveras (incidentally qualises/innovas smoke much lesser - can someone tell me why) and sumos that belch black smoke as well.

@Backseat: the standard is at Ultra-low sulfur diesel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - google!!

@Others: Its all good to say, its not the cars, its the trucks et al. but let's face it - trucks will stay diesel. no one can afford petrol trucks. So the only way to cut future incremental emissions is diesel cars. Unfortunately that sems the only way out. The smog in Delhi is nothing short of horrendous compared to last year - who are we kidding anyways? "Its the trucks, not my car" doesn't take us too far.
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Old 14th December 2007, 01:43   #97
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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
@Others: Its all good to say, its not the cars, its the trucks et al. but let's face it - trucks will stay diesel. no one can afford petrol trucks. So the only way to cut future incremental emissions is diesel cars. Unfortunately that sems the only way out. The smog in Delhi is nothing short of horrendous compared to last year - who are we kidding anyways? "Its the trucks, not my car" doesn't take us too far.
I once saw a petrol car belching smoke. By your logic all petrol cars should be banned too?
The govt is passing the buck. If a vehicle is polluting then challan is impound it.
Its like saying a car met with an accident so we will ban all cars so there will be no accidents.
Why should people with clean diesel cars meeting emission standards penalized just because some taxi driver could not care two hoots.

@phamilyman. A piece of news for you. Do you know catalytic converters have limited life, and bad fuel can damage them. When a petrol car runs a partially damaged catalytic converter it releases benzene which is carcinogenic.
Now I have seen so many Pre Euro cars without Cat cons running unleaded petrol. By the logic you have mentioned we should ban all petrol cars too to control cancer. Do you agree with me?

Many other western countries are switching to diesel because its a cleaner fuel when used in a modern engine with EGR and emission control systems. Here its like taking a step backwards.

Considering that adulterated petrol causes modern petrol cars to pollute lets ban both petrol and diesel cars, why ban just diesel

Last edited by tsk1979 : 14th December 2007 at 01:45.
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Old 14th December 2007, 16:08   #98
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CSE has stepped into the debate with more ammunition against diesel engines. Indian norms for diesel are letting diesel manufacturers get away with dirty diesel technology in India while the same manufacturers supply cleaner engines abroad. This all members will agree is unacceptable. Also they want the subsidies in diesel to be lifted for private cars, definitely needed but how will it be implemented.
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Old 14th December 2007, 16:25   #99
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Ok if this happens in Kolkata then I will have to replace my Tata Indica and Swift Diesel . I love both :-( !!
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Old 14th December 2007, 16:32   #100
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This is just another knee-jerk reaction from the government before the Commonwealth Game. The State Government will think not just twice but a 100 time before they do this. If they do this they will lose out on the revenue. People can buy their vehicle from NCR and drive in the city. So Delhi Governments loss will be Haryana Governments gain.

They cannot stop diesel vehicles from moving around in the city. What they are talking about is banning/stopping registration on any new vehicle.

How can we blame the manufacturers. Even if they introduce Euro 4 engines, where is the quality fuel. Even the current fuel is not of the best quality to say the least. And this is the govenments problem. The government should be pulled up for this. The manufacturers should take it up strongly with the government.

Anyway this is just to ensure nothing stops the Commenwealth from taking place. Thats their end objective. After that they will forget everything. They are not concerned about the citizens. It is a know fact that the IOC can penalise India if the pollution level is not within acceptable levels, as it will affect the athletes from the commonwealth countries.

But knowing India anything can happen.
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Old 14th December 2007, 16:32   #101
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Ban trucks rather than banning diesel cars. Has someone had their brains for dinner?
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Old 14th December 2007, 16:42   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddy42 View Post
Ban trucks rather than banning diesel cars.
And then what? Where would you get your supplies from?
A phased elimination of polluting vehicles must be implemented.
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Old 14th December 2007, 17:53   #103
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A ban on diesels is silly.
The government should just make the emission norms for petrol and diesel the same. That way car manufacturers will have to think of ways to reduce diesel emissions with particulate matter filters etc. If the fuel is not good quality then the car making lobby will force the refiners to do something about it.
All this, reminds me of the debate about catalytic converters and unleaded fuel. Both happened, didn't they? Just like it is happening with unleaded, start in the cities with low-sulphur diesel and gradually spread to the hinterland. To make it viable for refiners allow them to charge more for ULSD.
Of course, once all this is done, the debate will not be about petrol vs. diesel but car vs. no car . Because whatever you do, cars that burn fossil fuels pollute and we are buying a lot of them!
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Old 14th December 2007, 18:04   #104
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A more intelligent step would be for the Govt to conduct surprise checks on petrol bunks and test the quality of diesel sold there.
In case it detects adulterated diesel being sold, then Ban the Petrol Bunk.
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Old 14th December 2007, 18:15   #105
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This is crap.. Government can set regulations on emission. If the manufacturer is able to cop up with that, why should HC bother about which fuel is been used? Ultimately this rule is for helping whom? Is that someone really bothered to know that petrol consumption in Delhi is reducing drastic? Havnt heard about such a rule nowhere else in the world. Do you guys know any city in the world where there is no diesel cars?

Rahter than putting deisel on ban, HC should order to remove all 15 year old buses from the DTC fleet, which is pollutting and killing atleast 1 per day. Its a clear fact that those buses have mechanical complaints than reckless driving.


HC should order government to promote hybrid vehicles and fuel efficient vehicles by tax rebate. Govt should see the average running cost of each model and fix the tax according to that, which will ultimately bring down fuel cost and pollution.

Last edited by HotChillyPepper : 14th December 2007 at 18:21.
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