The Definitive discussion. Is a Skoda more expensive to own than the rest?

[Rtech]

Ok. lets take GTO's reply pointwise.

Originally Posted by GTO

Rt, yes the engine oil forms a significant component of the service costs, but it is still a part of every service isn’t it? Why should I view that number as an exclusive and not as a part of the whole? Any car owner is going to look at the *total* service costs. And if a 10 lac car costs 7,000 - 9,000 to service each time (as in the case of this thread starter), it is simply not justifiable.

I agree. You look at total cost. What I cannot find here is a break up of service costs for a Honda Accord or Civic. I don't own one, so cannot comment. From what I have seen, the costs of filters, brake pads, oil filters etc are basically on par, be it the Corolla, the Accord/Civic, the Optra or the Octavia.

The difference then would be solely the cost of the oil, which would be around Rs.2,000. So on average, the Skoda would cost Rs.2,000 more than one of the above cars to service, and no difference if the owner is an enthusiast and want the good stuff for his engine.

I would be obliged to see a few actual out of warranty servicing costs for the Accord/Civic, Corolla and Optra (parts cost, labour charge, tax etc, just as the thread starter has put up). I've heard figures of it being done for Rs.2000 or so. If so, I must say that is truly amazing. More power to them!

Originally Posted by GTO

Quick research shows me that VW doesn’t compulsorily require synthetic oil in their TDi cars everywhere they are sold. They simply have recommended grades…grades which some regular / semi-synthetic also meet.

Links please. To the best of my knowledge Skoda / VW do indeed specify only synthetic oils for their diesels. Well, actually they have their own specification for oils, and I have yet to see a mineral oil that meets that specification. They specify a mineral oil only for top up if nothing else is available.

Originally Posted by GTO

If Skoda India truly cared about offering value to the customer, they would sell that cheaper oil officially and at a lower price (like Honda does). It’s also called adapting to local circumstances.

Huh. You want Skoda India to turn the tide and get the parent company to approve the use of oils that do not meet the VW standards or cheaper mineral oils here. Would be great if it would happen, but I don't see it because...

Originally Posted by GTO

Mobil 1 doesn’t cost $20 / liter elsewhere in the world.

Exactly! Its only here that we have the privilege of paying absurd prices for this stuff. Again I ask, do we blame VW/Skoda for this or Mobil or maybe our Govt. who taxes it? I don't know?

Originally Posted by GTO

Also, like someone mentioned, the service interval for a Canadian VW is 10000 miles / 16000 kilometers. So each liter of synthetic oil is used for a longer duration.

umm. Again, VW/Skoda would be happy to provide this interval to us if we had roads and that wonderfuly clean driving environments like they do in Canada. Also this is clearly noted it your own thread in the Advice section is absurd. This is what You had to say in This Advice thread:
Extended oil change intervals?: Even though most synthetic oil brands boast of extended oil change intervals, Team-BHP recommends that you still change your engine oil every 5,000 – 7,500 km. Indian driving conditions put a lot of stress on your engine with low average speeds, bumper-to-bumper traffic and harsh environmental conditions.

Skoda India recommends an interval of 7,500km. They, like any manufacturer would, like to err on the side of caution. Also, please note that Skoda only mention an oil change every 7,500 km. Not a full service. That is to be done every 15,000km.

The diesel fuel filter is to be drained every 15,000km and replaced every 30,000km.
The Air filter is to be cleaned every 15,000km and changed every 30,000km or 24 months.(hahaha, are they kidding!).

Maybe those worried about the costs of changing these along with the oil change should follow exactly what Skoda India says and not what the dealers say (selfish interests to them you see).

Almost all manufacturers have a Hard use service interval and regular use interval. In India, its almost always the hard use interval which is adopted due to our conditions.

Again, I wait for one of the other car owners to tell us what is given in their manual. I'm sure it would be a mileage + time frame for a change.

Originally Posted by GTO

To car enthusiasts like you and me, the price differential between regular and synthetic oil may be justified. But to the other overwhelming majority of car owners, it simply isn’t. Primarily because the car functions just as well on regular oil too! The Octavia TDi engine aint no complex modern marvel; it’s a plain ol’ TDi that uses old school technology albeit very efficiently. Heck the Scorpio common-rail is more modern....can you imagine what would happen if Mahindra started charging 7,000 per service ONLY for the engine oil? Rural India would strike!

GTO, CRD-i technology differs to direct injection yes. But it is the way the fuel is injected that is the difference, not the way the engine itself functions.

A CRDi engine can be made as well or as badly as any DI engine in terms of manufacturing tolerances, heat dissipation and basic design. The tighter the build tolerances, the better the oil has to perform from the moment you start the car (cold engine) to running is 45 degree heat.

Simply saying that a CRDi engine can run fine on x oil so a DI engine should have no excuse is an incorrect statement.

Also, the days of mineral oils in modern passenger cars are slowly coming to an end. Almost every car above a certain price bracket now comes with fully synthetic oils as OE. This is filtering down just like airbags and ABS did. Soon, even the equivalent of a M800 would run with 100% synthetic. Also, the price of synthetics would drop. Thats progress.

Originally Posted by GTO

I remember seeing a comparison between an Octavia’s service costs versus that of an Optra / Corolla. For 50,000 kms, the Octavia cost anywhere between 3 – 6 times that of its competition. To me, that does make a car expensive to service. Relative to its competition.

I tried finding it, but could not. I've found real prices from Skoda owners mentioned, but couldn't find the same for the others.

Infact, I think we need to split this into a new thread and lets have some accurate figures put up for all cars. Pre & post warranty period servicing costs. Would be of immense help to new buyers. Standard consumable to be priced (filters/oil/labour). What say?

[madan80]

my neighbor has 3 corolla's a skoda and some other cars, and he is planning on selling off the skoda because of "high cost of maintenance" -- Scary!

[Rtech]

Siiigh! Thats real helpful madan. Thanks.

[csentil]

Originally Posted by normally_crazy

Also NOT ONE Civic owner came back with servicing costs / part costs on the other Honda Civic v/s Skoda vRS thread.

I think most of the Civic owners have their car for less than 1 year, so you won't get as much details on this.

However here goes from whatever I've done so far for the Civic.

Paid Service or Checkup - 550+tax
Engine Oil - 515.78+tax
Oil Filter Cartridge - 134.70+tax

there is no labour for the engine oil change. Atleast I wasn't charged anything for that. And no separate charge for washing the car. They do use a shampoo to wash and rub tyre conditioner to the tyres also free of cost.

[vid6639]

okay I don't know if these figures are accurate but very interesting to see. these are the rates for the Optra Magnum D, Elantra CRDi and the Octavia 1.9TDi.

service parts:


mechanical parts:


accident repair parts:

[anainar]

Why am I getting a familiar vibe?? When I bought my corolla, I was seriously considering Skoda. But the TAFE guys who are dealers for Skoda screwed up big time. I wanted to test drive their Turbo charged, 150 hp version, but the sales guy asked me to drive the regular skoda and said they are the same. Gave him a piece of my mind and walked away. Am glad i did it at that point of time. Since then I have heard only horror stories about skoda service.

Nainar

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by Rtech

Lol. ET, I'm not here to argue with you. You don't like something, I got no problem with that. There is a reason why more than one car sells in a market, and that is because different people want different things from a car.
P.s. I find it ironic that you own a Fiat though.

True and why should I care if the one who's paying for the service is happy and has no problems paying that amount.
My FIAT has been very light on the pocket, hasnt need much and if at all needed, the spares are more than reasonably priced, on par with Santro and Wagon R and cheaper for somethings and FIAT service dont insist on using synthetic. It was a emotional decision buying my Palio, but head wasnt totally ignored.

I would never buy a 1.9 litre, 90 bhp diesel car with less legroom than many midsizers, costing above a million rs and costing me 10k's for a routine service.

[Rtech]

ET, the irony was in the fact that you stated you hated the attitude of the company. You gotto admit its funny to hear that coming from a Palio owner!

[anandpadhye]

Originally Posted by Rtech

ET, the irony was in the fact that you stated you hated the attitude of the company. You gotto admit its funny to hear that coming from a Palio owner!

Fiat does not have attitude problems.
They are disorganized.

There is a difference.

[Rtech]

Chal. That's the cue for me to leave this thread! Nothing productive left to come out of this when people begin to take light hearted comments so seriously.

[GTO]

I agree. You look at total cost. What I cannot find here is a break up of service costs for a Honda Accord or Civic. I don't own one, so cannot comment.

Dont know about the breakup, but I can assure you the Accord & Civic dont cost 9 grand for each service. Considering that they also cost significantly more than the Octavia, is it any wonder why they sell so well?

Accord :

1st : 0 (No oil change)
2nd Oil : Rs. 700 @ 5000 kms
3rd : Rs. 900 @ 10000 kms
4th : Rs. 2500 @ 15000 kms
5th : Rs. 7000 @ 20000 kms
6th, 7th and 8th : Rs. 2000 – 2300 every 5000 kms.

Civic :

1st : 0 (No oil change)
2nd : 0
3rd : Rs. 800
4th : Rs. 2300
5th : Rs. 7000
6th : Rs. 2500
7th : Rs. 2500
8th : Rs. 2300

Hondas have major services every 20,000 km which cost between 5,000 - 10000. For the rest, it is anywhere between 700 - 2000 including the engine oil. You own a Skoda - Tell me how much it costs to service 8 times over?

So on average, the Skoda would cost Rs.2,000 more than one of the above cars to service,

The difference can be as high as 7,000 per service as illustrated above. These are official Honda figures for Mumbai servicing taken from Arya Honda.

Links please. To the best of my knowledge Skoda / VW do indeed specify only synthetic oils for their diesels. Well, actually they have their own specification for oils, and I have yet to see a mineral oil that meets that specification.

VW recommends API CG-4 for their TDi's. There are some mineral oils that meet this recommendation. Check your Octy service manual.

Huh. You want Skoda India to turn the tide and get the parent company to approve the use of oils that do not meet the VW standards or cheaper mineral oils here. Would be great if it would happen, but I don't see it because...

Absolutely not. What I am asking is for them to make available the cheaper oils which meet VW specifications. And sell them as "Skoda branded" oils just like Honda did when my Vtec goes for a service. That is offering value to the customer. But Skoda India is hardly known for being a customer-centric organisation, isnt it? Sadly the parent company's attitude filters down to most of their dealerships.

This is what You had to say in This Advice thread:
Extended oil change intervals?: Even though most synthetic oil brands boast of extended oil change intervals, Team-BHP recommends that you still change your engine oil every 5,000 – 7,500 km.

I aint saying they increase the intervals for India. What I was saying is that, compulsory use of synthetic oil may be justified in a country like Canada where you change it every 16,000 kms.

Simply saying that a CRDi engine can run fine on x oil so a DI engine should have no excuse is an incorrect statement.

Agreed. But the Skoda is a simple engine which can run just as efficiently on regular oil which meets VW requirements.

Also, the days of mineral oils in modern passenger cars are slowly coming to an end. Almost every car above a certain price bracket now comes with fully synthetic oils as OE.

So will traction control be standard one day. But we are talking about the present day scenario where Synthetic does cost more than 5 times that of regular oil.

Its important to consider that "cost of acquisition" is being sensibly replaced by "total ownership cost" in purchase considerations. If a 16 lakh Honda Accord costs 2,000 per service, a 10 lakh Octavia costing 9,000 is indisputably expensive to own. In percentage terms, the Accord costs 0.13 % of product cost to service. The Octavia is a whopping 1% of product cost. Thus I reiterate that:

1. It is a matter of personal choice and one that should be left to the consumer. 99% of Indians do NOT want to pay Rs.1,000 per liter of oil. Makes no difference that synthetic oil forms a significant part of the service bill. What matters is the *total* service amount which I have to write a cheque for.

2. Skodas direct competiton (Corolla, Optra etc.) and cars from a higher segment (Civic, Accord) are far cheaper to service.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by vid6639

okay I don't know if these figures are accurate but very interesting to see. these are the rates for the Optra Magnum D, Elantra CRDi and the Octavia 1.9TDi.

service parts:


mechanical parts:


accident repair parts:

Excellent price comparison. If the numbers are correct, that hits the nail right on the head.

[anandrs]

Originally Posted by GTO

Its important to consider that "cost of acquisition" is being sensibly replaced by "total ownership cost" in purchase considerations. If a 16 lakh Honda Accord costs 2,000 per service, a 10 lakh Octavia costing 9,000 is indisputably expensive to own. In percentage terms, the Accord costs 0.13 % of product cost to service. The Octavia is a whopping 1% of product cost.

One should consider the mileage while determining the running costs. Not just the service costs. I have been torn between buying a Civic and Octavia. I have been browsing the tbhp threads for the last 3 weeks and there can be no doubt that the dealership/A.S.S is bad for Skoda. Similarly, there is no doubt that it is a good car. But in terms of cost, if one were to factor in the fuel consumption for skoda and civic with the prices of diesel and petrol, the cost of ownership would tilt in favour of Skoda.

[sivadas]

Bottom line is that if a car gives/rumoured to give good mileage , rest of the things are ignored and many people blindly buy it.
eg: Skoda TDi and Hond City

Same way if a car is giving/rumoured to give below average mileage, rest of the things are ignored and people blindly avoid it.
eg: Palio, Getz

I am not saying mileage is the only factor people consider while buying a car, but for many people that is a major aspect and they are not bothered to find out other details of the car.

[anandrs]

Originally Posted by sivadas

Bottom line is that if a car gives/rumoured to give good mileage , rest of the things are ignored and many people blindly buy it.
eg: Skoda TDi and Hond City

Same way if a car is giving/rumoured to give below average mileage, rest of the things are ignored and people blindly avoid it.
eg: Palio, Getz

I am not saying mileage is the only factor people consider while buying a car, but for many people that is a major aspect and they are not bothered to find out other details of the car.

True. Indians think frugal. Just as maintenance costs matter, fuel consumption also matters. The NHC IDSI was marketed heavily using its mileage. I think its a personal preference. Every one has their own priorities. Me and my friend are buying a new car. I am inclined heavily towards the skoda because I enjoy driving the car. My friend on the other hand has already booked the Civic even though he agrees that the Skoda was fun to drive. I can be expected to defend my decision by its merits. And my friend the same. Bottom line is that civic worked out better for his preference. Skoda works out better for mine.