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Old 17th October 2007, 00:46   #61
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This is one of the most important and neglected principles of safe driving (of course, only for those who can safely and confidently overtake). When you overtake, you rely on your skills to avert accidents. When you are overtaken, you rely on somebody else's skills.
Care to explain that one rks ?
Because as I understand while overtaking you are not only relying on your own skill but also on maturity of person being overtaken.
Imagine this, you are overtaking some car and another car is coming in opposite direction, what if the car being overtaken suddenly steps on gas and gives you no room.
Surely it won't be safe will it be?

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When you go fast, there is ususally nobody within striking distance behind you. Then the chances of your getting rear-ended reduce dramatically.
Forget being rear-ended, what about a good 'ol head on collision?

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(3) Fast driving means you get a clear view of the road ahead, since you will get ahead of slow-moving vehicles.

In particular, if, say, a Volvo bus is ahead of me at 80-100 kmph on the Expressway or on the narrower 4-lane Pune bypass road, I quickly and painlessly overtake the guy. I regain full view of the road and put distance between myself and the bus in double quick time.

Whereas the advocates of slow driving in this thread will undoubtedly follow the Volvo, since it can be safely overtaken only if you increase speed beyond their acceptable limit. That could be more dangerous than my style, for if the Volvo guy steps on his power brakes (which he will do frequently on narrow roads) or straddles a massive pothole, you could be left high and dry. And you will not be able to see what is ahead of him, which is very important for good anticipation.
You have massively misunderstood what people are trying to say here.

They are not saying go slow. They are saying don't speed. There is a lot of difference in it. And which also includes keeping safe distance from vehical in front of you. (In this example the Volvo bus).
And don't misunderstand people saying don't speed. Taking my example in your above example I would simply overtake Volvo and then again continue with my own steady pace with having full view of road. If Volvo driver still again overtakes me then probably he is driving fast or I am in mood to drive very slow either way Volvo bus will be let go ahead of me.
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Old 17th October 2007, 09:39   #62
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[quote=razor4077;597418]Very informative thread. Thank you vasudeva for digging up so much of data for our benefit.
My observation - I noticed that a lot of the stats/data were obtained from studies carried out in countries in North America and Europe. IMHO, what is applicable in one country may not be applicable in another.

Take India vs the US for example...
Anyone who has seen the road network in America would not even start to compare it with Indian roads. While the highways are in much better shape here nowadays than they used to be even 5 years ago, they still have a way to go before they reach US standards. I won't even bother talking about city/suburban/rural roads. Second would be the population - not just of people alone, but of cars and people combined (since they share the roads). I think it's fair to say that this density is far more in India than in the States... less road surface/car+person.


The points you are making are valid but the laws of physics do apply everywhere, and humans are also spongy everywhere. In fact given the road conditions here everywhere even on the so called expressways, with a human missile coming out of nowhere just when you think that there is not a soul in sight, highway safe speeds should be even lower. Consider this, of the 1.2 million dead in road accidents worldwide, 1.07 million are in developing countries, out of which 0.25 million are in South Asia. The fatalities per 100000 and fatalities per km traveled are amongst the highest in South Asia which incl. India.
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Old 17th October 2007, 09:48   #63
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Has any studies been carried out about road fatalities in India, and how many of them are due to high speed.
On my travels most accidents I have seen are at moderate speeds. For example overloaded truck overturned etc.,
People jumping red lights and having accidents.
At a crossing near my house, there is a major accident every month at speeds close to 50kmph because people don't consider "blinking yellow" to be caution.
Even the people mowed down by buses are killed at speeds below the speed limit.
I do not believe that US and Europe figures are relevant here.
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Old 17th October 2007, 09:54   #64
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Consider this. Passenger road traffic during 2004-05 (the latest figure available) in India was 646 billion kms. Freight road traffic was 3460 billion tonnes km (sorry but freight traffic is available in tonnes km). There were approx 80-90,000 road deaths in India.

By comparison, US road deaths have averaged around 43-44,000 per annum over last 2-3 yrs. Their total road mileage was 3.98 billion miles. In fact, US road death rates per 100 million vehicle miles has declined from 3.3 in 1980 to 1.4 in 2004.
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Old 17th October 2007, 10:04   #65
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I have only given impersonal stats which show that road deaths are higher in developing countries such as India. The human dimension is that in road accident deaths in India, the people with the lowest incomes are the most vulnerable. They have perhaps one bread earner who is not insured, out on the road in a cycle or perhaps a 2W or even walking. The family burden of a road injury or death on these people can be catastrophic. For example, a survey found that when a member of a rural household in India was injured (not killed) in a road crash, average household income and consumption declined sharply, to the point that 28 percent of households were forced to reduce food consumption. According to one published estimate, the annual cost of road injuries is 1% of gross domestic product in low-income countries and 1.5% in middle-income countries.

In high income countries, road fatalities are declining despite traffic growth, because of improvements in vehicles, roads, traffic management, law enforcement, education, emergency services, and medical treatment. However, fatalities are rising in the developing countries, especially where motor vehicle use is growing rapidly. WHO and World Bank projections indicate that if present patterns of road deaths continue, by 2020 annual road fatalities will increase by 80% (over 2000 levels) in low- and middle-income countries and will decline by 30% (over 2000 levels) in high-income countries. In India and other countries of South Asia, where motorisation is increasing at a fast rate with an accompanying deterioration of road conditions (because of many factors), while road deaths could increase from 0.24-0.25 million in 2002 to 0.41-0.45 million in 2020, their share of deaths will increase from 1.4% in 2002 to 2.8%.
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Old 17th October 2007, 10:05   #66
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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
This thraed reminds me: Why the obssesion with hot chics, when marrying one would result in divorce...
Nice one...Very much true.

Glamour/Beauty is inversely proportional to Character/Behaviour.

Disclaimer : There are eXceptions to this law !
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Old 17th October 2007, 10:10   #67
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When road fatality data are examined across countries and over time, the pattern that emerges is that as a country’s income rises, road traffic fatalities initially increase with growing use of motor vehicles; then, at higher incomes, the frequency of fatalities begins to fall. The decline is largely because of this factor: as motor vehicles become the dominant mode of transport, conflicts between motor vehicles and pedestrians and cyclists decrease; higher incomes and better government also lead to adoption of practices that reduce risk, such as better road designs, safer vehicles, and better traffic control; and drivers learn from experience over time how to reduce their risks. This may suggest that ultimately some time in the future, the rise in India’s deaths may decline. However, this may not be the case without measures taken to reduce injuries and fatalities in countries at all stages of development. These include improved traffic law enforcement, speed enforcement programmes, improvements in road designs, etc.
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Old 17th October 2007, 10:16   #68
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For members who really are interested in reading more about road injuries and fatalities especially in developing countries, a very good site is:

WHO | Injuries, Traffic

In 2004, the WHO published a report on road injuries and safety which is here:

WHO | World report on road traffic injury prevention
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Old 17th October 2007, 10:27   #69
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Originally Posted by Elito11 View Post
Is it only me that feels this thread is reaching preachy levels!

Why this obessesion? Well its NOT an obsession - its just a desire! Infact a lot of people just took it to be a statement rather than question the validity of the question!

I believe whenever we try and make a rule of common sense, we end up restricting/controlling ourselves. Look at US, i agree it has a good number of rules for a lot of things, but then again its such a restrictive society! You have people suing each other for petty things all the time!!

A society which runs on common sense and Moderation is much more advanced according to me. Japan, UK, france are a few good examples of this.

Often there is so much anguish with citizens over small things and tolerance levels are so low!!

I often notice small instances of this creeping in india too. IMO European/Asian (some) countries are a lot better in this regard. They understand individual/society/civil rights much better.

Why should ABS be made MANDATORY? i would rather have a CHOICE. Forcing it is as bad as not giving us the choice! Thats freedom according to me.
Yes, freedom to smoke in public and blow carcinogens in others faces (banned in most of the countries quoted but still free to do so in India), freedom to drive as fast as you can (and perhaps kill some poor guy). Freedom is the principal objective, but one person's freedom should not become other person's nuisance or death. That is why at least civilised societies have evolved some principles on these risk factors (now, no Bush, Cheney, Iraq here).
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Old 17th October 2007, 10:31   #70
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Has any studies been carried out about road fatalities in India, and how many of them are due to high speed.
On my travels most accidents I have seen are at moderate speeds. For example overloaded truck overturned etc.,
People jumping red lights and having accidents.
At a crossing near my house, there is a major accident every month at speeds close to 50kmph because people don't consider "blinking yellow" to be caution.
Even the people mowed down by buses are killed at speeds below the speed limit.
I do not believe that US and Europe figures are relevant here.
I have no desire to argue otherwise, as I have posted my own opinion elsewhere. But have you noticed how many people die in the night hours or early dawn. Perhaps they were driving sedately at 40-50 kmph. Remember the alleged BMW/truck, or other film stars, who were perhaps just cruising at below speed limits. On a universal basis, a large proportion of deaths occur during the night/early dawn hours. On a per mile traveled basis, night deaths per mile traveled are much higher than daytime deaths per travel mile.
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Old 17th October 2007, 10:41   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
This thraed reminds me: Why the obssesion with hot chics, when marrying one would result in divorce...
haha well said Aseem

Quote:
Originally Posted by carboy View Post
1) Absolutely no chance of being rear ended when driving in the opp
direction.

2) Absolutely clear view of all vehicles you are likely to hit - no need
to ever look into the mirrors - any cars in the mirror are going away from
you & not towards you.

3) If the thug is on foot & on coming in the opp direction, just mow him
down. If he is in a car, by the time he turns around & follows you, you
can be gone.

4) I doubt if anyone will fall asleep while driving wrong side - you really
have to be alert to do this. Plus all those people honking at you.
RKS was talking about a General Environment, not a perticular situation. assumptions can be made easily. What if a person is driving at 50-60 kmph on the highways and a truck or a bus looses the balance? heading towards you from the back?
and assumptions can be made like this..... car is heading fast means not at the throtling speed but yes fast enough to control easily..... say fiesta at 100-120 kmph or sonata at 100-120 kmph, a truck looses balance as soon as you overtake the bus by bla bla pithole or anyother reason... Now what?
Fast moving car will be safe... overtake time was less and the slow moving car will take good amount of time in overtaking. We can assume anything but it is a general talk.

For the 2nd point you mentioned... no need to look into the rear mirrors? Please tell me why? Are you the one who is fast? What if another car approaching you? Man, we are not talking of a car moving at 170-180 kmph (dangerous speed) but a car moving at 100-130 or max to max 140 kmph but depends on the cars.

Now for the 3rd point... We can again assume the situation like this... what if a thug is coming from the opposite direction. Please tell me one thing.. can bring your car suddenly infront of a car who is cruising at 120-130 kmph? lol and if the thug is heading towards you then in that condition i will speed up more parking lights on dipper starts and i will just keep on coming his way with more and more speed and i will try my level best to scare him up. "Let us see who is a craziest person in the world, the thug or the person he planned to rob". Dude!! mind you.. thug will not risk his life and he will surely move left or right suddenly. Keep yourself into thug's position and think his psychology. You being a thug will risk your life like this? ofcourse not and you will look for another person who is slow.. lol even if i will stop the car what if the thug kills me? duh!! so better to take chances and have a go on the thug.stupid

Now talking of American conditions vs Indian conditions:
1. Road Conditions - no comparison.
2. Traffic Sense - no comparison.
3. Cars Quality - no comparison. No security test done, Marutis and Tatas will be in a biggest trouble.
4. Cops - any comparison?
5. Strictness - any comparison?
6. Number of Cars on the road - lol again no comparison.
7. Road Sense by the people on the roads - People crossing the roads risk their life and other's life too. Sudden crossings, No matter if a car is coming or not..
8. Hot Chicks on the road - People forgot to mention this thing, I had seen many people on the roads two wheeler or the car. One hot chick on the road with minis and all that stuff, while driving they take their eye off the road. In America its common and boys are not like this, but here in india. Dingo!! I had seen 4 accidents infront of my eyes, just because of this reason including one of my very close friend haha
If there is no comparison in any of the conditions in America and India then why to compare the stats of the accidents, it is irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adya33 View Post
Because as I understand while overtaking you are not only relying on your own skill but also on maturity of person being overtaken.
Imagine this, you are overtaking some car and another car is coming in opposite direction, what if the car being overtaken suddenly steps on gas and gives you no room.
Surely it won't be safe will it be?
You are correct. But one should take the precautions. While overtaking use Dipper and Horn both, you will come to know if the driver is mature or not.
Sign of immature driver on highways while overtaking
1. He will not give you side unless you come very close to his car or Blows a good horns and dippers. #$%#$% to these kinda immature behavior.
2. He will hit the gas.

one should response according to the conditions...
1. While Overtaking, i just overdrive the car to minimize the time of overtaking. (best) Small gear just before overtaking (one should know your car before doing this), and giving a thrust to 3.5k-5k rpm flat.
2. Now if the person tries to hit the gas then avoid overtaking him with a sudden shock, less horns and be nice to that fool. lol even if that person don't give the proper side. Then wait for a good condition and overtake the car as if you are in a drag. (Need Skills)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adya33 View Post
Forget being rear-ended, what about a good 'ol head on collision?
It can occur at lower speeds too.. But yes, you are right. One should not drive the car beyond limits. like Sonata can be driven easily at 140 kmph but not Santro.

So, Experience and Skills counts.:



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Old 17th October 2007, 11:20   #72
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Perhaps people are more interested in saving 1/2 hour to reach somewhere by gambling their life as well as others..

It was once when I touched 155 KMPH on my Palio and a simple question "Do you love me? and want to see our family happy?" from my girl friend changed me.. Now I never cross 90 even on empty exp highway... That even saves a bit of natural resource called gas from this planet earth
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Old 17th October 2007, 11:36   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adya33 View Post
Care to explain that one rks ?
Because as I understand while overtaking you are not only relying on your own skill but also on maturity of person being overtaken.
Imagine this, you are overtaking some car and another car is coming in opposite direction, what if the car being overtaken suddenly steps on gas and gives you no room.
Surely it won't be safe will it be?
I am assuming that you can overtake with all due caution and with enough margins to pull out. For example, if the guy you are overtaking speeds up, you should immediately abort the overtake. He could also make a sudden move to the right. So you should keep him in your peripheral vision while you are passing him. The point here is that the *overtaken* vehicle is also subject to the same risks of an accident caused by the overtaking vehicle. So if you are continuously being overtaken, you are not as safe as you may imagine. This is particularly true of Expressways, where the overtaking vehicle will be at a much higher speed than you are if you crawl along at 80 kmph (the speed limit).

Quote:
Forget being rear-ended, what about a good 'ol head on collision?
That will be caused by *your* misjudgement, wouldn't it? When you speed, you should know when to lift your foot off the throttle and avoid rear-ending somebody else. But if you go slow, again you rely on somebody else to have that skill. I am not asserting that it is always safe to go fast. But my view is that if you are at a higher speed than the average speed of the traffic (but not *too* much higher), then you rely on your skills to avert accidents. All this is within sane limits, of course.

Quote:
You have massively misunderstood what people are trying to say here.

They are not saying go slow. They are saying don't speed. There is a lot of difference in it. And which also includes keeping safe distance from vehical in front of you. (In this example the Volvo bus).
And don't misunderstand people saying don't speed. Taking my example in your above example I would simply overtake Volvo and then again continue with my own steady pace with having full view of road. If Volvo driver still again overtakes me then probably he is driving fast or I am in mood to drive very slow either way Volvo bus will be let go ahead of me.
OK, if "Don't speed" means "Don't drive rashly and go beyond your limits/your car's limits" I agree with that.
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Old 17th October 2007, 12:38   #74
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Originally Posted by rks View Post
OK, if "Don't speed" means "Don't drive rashly and go beyond your limits/your car's limits" I agree with that.
A survey done in the USA showed that almost all drivers overestimate their driving skills & limits in a big way. Almost everyone involved in
accidents felt that they were good or very good drivers.

So "don't go beyond your limits" doesn't make much sense.
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Old 17th October 2007, 12:59   #75
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Originally Posted by carboy View Post
A survey done in the USA showed that almost all drivers overestimate their driving skills & limits in a big way. Almost everyone involved in accidents felt that they were good or very good drivers.
For that matter a very similar survey right here at TBHP revealed that 95% people put themselves in the 'enthusiast' category in relation to their driving style.
Clearly a very similar sentiment seems to be emerging here on this thread as well.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ar-driver.html (Are you an enthusiastic driver or a regular driver?)
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