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Old 30th October 2007, 20:34   #61
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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
I am a U.S. citizen and have spent most of my life there. I travelled extensively for my job logging over 1.9 million kilimeters in about 25 years. My vehicle at home is a Ford F350 heavy duty 4x4 pickup truck with a 6.4L 325 BHP twin turbo diesel 8 cylinder engine in it.
What do you drive here in India?
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Old 30th October 2007, 20:43   #62
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What do you drive here in India?
Profile says Tata Spacio!
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Old 30th October 2007, 21:24   #63
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That's interesting, care to share some of your experience with us? .
It was a fun job. I got to drive everything from the biggest trucks to the smallest puddle jumpers, on road and off road. And, sometimes they tasked me to drive full out like a maniac to test where a production line weld or part would break first.

The maddening thing about the Safari is that the poor handling could be greatly improved with some cheap suspension tuning. Better shocks and effective anti-sway bars would cost little and achieve much, I think. The equipments are already there, it is just that they do not seem to match the vehicle's weight. Here is the 4x4 version suspension specs. Sounds great on paper.

Front double wishbone type with torsion bar springs
Rear coil spring type 5 Link suspension
Shock Absorber Hydraulic double-acting telescopic type at front & rear
Anti-roll bar both front and rear
Front double wishbone type with torsion bar springs
Rear coil spring type 5 Link suspension
Shock Absorber Hydraulic double-acting telescopic type at front & rear
Anti-roll bar both front and rear
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Old 30th October 2007, 22:12   #64
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Samurai, if you believe SUVs would handle like cars so be it. Dan had a point in that he was comparing it to other SUVs. You're talking about downplaying the negatives of an SUV. Decide what exactly your point is.
When somebody complains about bodyroll/handling in scorpio/Safari, it is immediately pointed out that it is not a sedan. I don't believe SUVs have same handling as a sedan, that is an physical impossibility considering the higher CG of SUVs. But the Acura MDX or GMC Envoy (both same size as Safari I think) I often used to drive were miles ahead of Safari. Therefore you can't generalise the handling/bodyroll of Safari as common to all SUVs. I know my point, hope you can understand.

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Brother, drive an Endeavour and enjoy the ride.
I thought we were discussing handling here. If you want to deviate, why not buy an Indica and enjoy the FE.

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As for the others, the GV is not a true offroader, slightly above the CRV in the softroader scheme of things.
Nor is Safari, there is none below Pajero, so what's your point?

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Most of them cost twice the price of the Safari.
I thought I mentioned that, what's your point in repeating it?

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
The point is, if you can afford the Pajero or other such vehicles, or as in the case of DD the F350, why would you even want to consider the Safari?
Suddenly this is about me now? Don't tell me you are hurt because I chose GV over the Safari. The question is funny because you know the whole story. I was considering Safari because that was the only thing in my Budget for many months, then my Budget changed and I could move up. The Pajero is outside my budget.

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You used to drive a Baleno, which was as highly regarded here on the Forum as the Safari is. After comparing it with the 5 Series or the A6, or at least the humbler Chevys and Oldsmobiles of the US of A, what made you buy the Baleno, especially when there were so many more (argueably better) options available?
Why is this a mystery? Baleno was the only performance oriented C segment car in my budget of 8 lakhs, it was not even in my initial list. In fact, I bought it based on the What Car thread I had opened in this very forum. I can understand if you don't remember, it was before you joined here.

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Again, if you really wanted to offroad why did you go for the GV and not a Pajero or a Prado or better still a Landcruiser?
Dude, it is that magic word again, Budget. My off-roading needs are medium in nature, something Scorpio/Safari/GV can handle. If you remember (which I know you do) I started with Gama/Gurkha, I would have been a Gurkha owner had they brought it out promptly few months back. I would have been a Safari 3.0L owner if not for a timely PM from Tanveer in late July asking me stop the order.

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There is a rationale behind the existence of every vehicle, and if it didnt have one it wouldnt survive in the market. Comparing it with those double the price and more is joining an arguement just for the sake of it.
Who is comparing? I was merely answering Dan why we tend to compare Safari/Scorpio to sedans in similar price band rather than other better SUVs in India. The answer I gave him, if you had missed it, is this: All SUVs in India that are better than Safari are very heavily overpriced.

Steeroid, what is the problem here? I thought we talking about why Safari does well. I already mentioned very early in this thread (post #6)that Safari is an incredible deal. Why are you on my case now?
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Old 30th October 2007, 22:50   #65
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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
It was a fun job. I got to drive everything from the biggest trucks to the smallest puddle jumpers, on road and off road. And, sometimes they tasked me to drive full out like a maniac to test where a production line weld or part would break first.

The maddening thing about the Safari is that the poor handling could be greatly improved with some cheap suspension tuning. Better shocks and effective anti-sway bars would cost little and achieve much, I think. The equipments are already there, it is just that they do not seem to match the vehicle's weight. Here is the 4x4 version suspension specs. Sounds great on paper.

Front double wishbone type with torsion bar springs
Rear coil spring type 5 Link suspension
Shock Absorber Hydraulic double-acting telescopic type at front & rear
Anti-roll bar both front and rear
Front double wishbone type with torsion bar springs
Rear coil spring type 5 Link suspension
Shock Absorber Hydraulic double-acting telescopic type at front & rear
Anti-roll bar both front and rear
ok my bad about telling you,
but try to think other way around what happens to safari if it costed Rs.13+ Lakhs. spend double the money and definitely you'll get a lot better SUV and talking about pickup in US, things are totally different so no good in comparing two.

Tata can tune the suspension in a better way but who knows they have better reasons for not doing so. they are in business for years and making money too.
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Old 30th October 2007, 22:57   #66
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
When somebody complains about bodyroll/handling in scorpio/Safari, it is immediately pointed out that it is not a sedan. I don't believe SUVs have same handling as a sedan, that is an physical impossibility considering the higher CG of SUVs. But the Acura MDX or GMC Envoy (both same size as Safari I think) I often used to drive were miles ahead of Safari. Therefore you can't generalise the handling/bodyroll of Safari as common to all SUVs. I know my point, hope you can understand.
Pardon my ignorance, If am right isnt the Acura MDX and the GMC Envoy a Monocoque design.

Also the Acura drives the front wheels, has a short wheelbase and a wide track to boot for its size... which obviously makes it a better handler no doubt ..

And the Safari is a body on ladder driving the rear wheels .... but yes handling can be improved but not to the extent of a monocoque ...
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Old 30th October 2007, 23:03   #67
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If anyone from Tata Motors is reading this, I would like to claim a sales commission please!

A 2.2 engine and gearbox will do nicely, thank you.
Steer I am sure you will not exchange the now priceless 3.0 engine
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Old 30th October 2007, 23:16   #68
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But the Acura MDX or GMC Envoy (both same size as Safari I think) I often used to drive were miles ahead of Safari.
Someone's already pointed this out, but out of interest have you really gone off road on those?

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Therefore you can't generalise the handling/bodyroll of Safari as common to all SUVs. I know my point, hope you can understand.
Which wasnt your point. To quote:

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
we here often have the habit of playing down negatives of SUVs saying it is not a car, SUVs are like that,
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I thought we were discussing handling here.
Nope the thread is titled 'Why Safari?' and not 'Why the Safari's suspension'

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Nor is Safari, there is none below Pajero, so what's your point?
The point being that this vehicle can take more abuse than any of the others mentioned in the same breath. And keep you comfortable. And trust me that truck can do a lot more than people give it credit for.

The only competition for it would be a sensibly priced Fortuner, but that is a very unlikely scenario + the Fortuner is not as comfortable.

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Don't tell me you are hurt because I chose GV over the Safari.
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Why are you on my case now?
Samurais should remain serious and not try to be funny.

Last edited by Steeroid : 30th October 2007 at 23:18.
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Old 30th October 2007, 23:30   #69
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Someone's already pointed this out, but out of interest have you really gone off road on those?
Nope, never with them. But I have taken Jeep Grand Cherokee and Ford Escape on specially prepared off-road testing track. The Cherokee was so composed (no bodyroll) jumping in & put of mudholes and up & down the mud hills. But the Escape was pathetic by comparison, bodyroll, sharp jolts and what not.


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Which wasnt your point.
Your interpretation.

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
Nope the thread is titled 'Why Safari?' and not 'Why the Safari's suspension'
I was answering Dan's post, and he was only talking about handling of Safari at that point. Check again.

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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
The point being that this vehicle can take more abuse than any of the others mentioned in the same breath. And keep you comfortable. And trust me that truck can do a lot more than people give it credit for.
Who is denying that? Just because I passed it over doesn't mean I think less of it's abilities. It does have many positives.

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Samurais should remain serious and not try to be funny.
Yeti asked me to develop a sense of humour, so I am trying.
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Old 30th October 2007, 23:42   #70
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We who driven professionally and extensively know what it is. It handles poorly for an SUV or for anything else.
Dan, you have a pretty impressive resume, one that I'm sure most of us would love to have. I don't drive professionally, and compared to your millions of km, not even extensively. But I have pushed a lot of Indian SUVs to their absolute limits, and I can say that on and past the limit, the Safari tends to behave predictably. Snap oversteer can be easily and intuitively corrected. It's only rival, the Scorpio, is a handful at any speed except parking. So comparitively (which is what counts), the Safari is a better handler.

Also, there are people who work on the Safari's suspension to give it some purpose.
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Old 31st October 2007, 01:04   #71
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The safari has now gained a position on TBHP which was/is the realm of the Baleno. i.e. for the lack of another alternative in that price, people tend to excuse its deficiencies (which are quite a few), make excuses for them and simply focus on the positives.

You really can't blame Tata. They are simply doing what others do anyways which is take advantage of the limited competition in that range.

My only experience with a Safari is a 14 hour trip in it. As a passenger in the middle row. Needless to say, it sure was comfortable.

As far as v1p3r's comment about the scorpio, well, I've got a bit more experience with driving a scorpio than I do a Safari, but I can surely say that the 4x4 Scorpio is fairly secure cruising at 110kmph. I've put many a kilometer on the company scorpio and the handling is not as scary as its portrayed. Maybe the 2wd version is different. Also, the Scorpio is a far better vehicle for those who claim to like offroading.

Basically, the Safari is for those who want a large, comfy, imposing station wagon which gives the impression of being an outdoorsy type. Come to thing of it, its the same as the soft roaders like the CRV in the end. Both are bought mainly for the image (as most safari owners here agree). I'm quite sure that taken offroad, they both would be fairly similar in their rock climbing abilities. However, I've yet to see a Safari being taken offroad seriously.
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Old 31st October 2007, 01:19   #72
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Also, the Scorpio is a far better vehicle for those who claim to like offroading.
...
Come to thing of it, its the same as the soft roaders like the CRV in the end. Both are bought mainly for the image (as most safari owners here agree). I'm quite sure that taken offroad, they both would be fairly similar in their rock climbing abilities. However, I've yet to see a Safari being taken offroad seriously.
Can the CRV or the Scorpio do this?



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Old 31st October 2007, 04:30   #73
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Or maybe,before saying much more we would like to see the components before replacing it with "cheap parts", for example the LSD come from Dana spicer so do the rear diffs,what are we going to replace this with? Comparing it with imported SUV's is way off,

if inevitable...then all Indian cars can be compared to any imported car and say " I drive a nissan skyline GT R which is similarly priced to a Skoda laura diesel in India(or somewhere else)and i say skoda is not a skyline"!!

Obviously imported suvs are not available for us desi's to buy or comment,Safari and why are the words and let us compare it to what is available here in India at Safaris price range an VFM and come to a conclusion.

Last edited by Desert fox : 31st October 2007 at 04:36.
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Old 31st October 2007, 08:33   #74
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@viper, I believe those are modified safari's.
As for handling, the only other SuV I have driven is a Jeep Liberty.
Drove hundreds of miles on twisty highway 1.
During the return journey I was tailing a Ford pickup truck. The speeds we were doing would have been impossible in any of the sub 10L indian SuVs. This was not from the lack of power but more from the handling front.

So comparing US SuVs and safari, definitely they handle well.
But in India, if your budget is below 10L, safari and scorpio are only options.
Scorpio is a small car from inside. So if you want a big SuV below 10L, safari is the best handling one(because its the only one).

Its a ladder on frame chassis not monoque. It is going to have disadvantages. Moreover its a decade old design. The safari has been unchanged(effectively) from past 10 years except for the engine.
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Old 31st October 2007, 10:29   #75
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That looks stuck rather than off roading !
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