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Old 21st November 2007, 06:54   #1
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Default Delhi ... yet again - Diesel Car ban in planning

I read the following article in HT today morning and thought what you guys think of it...

SC seeks Centre's reply on diesel pollution report

The Supreme Court has sought the Centre's reply on a report by the Environment Protection Control Authority, terming Delhi's air pollution as critical because of the rise of diesel vehicles on the road. The authority recommended a ban on registration of diesel vehicles for personal use. "This restriction should also be applied to vehicles entering the city from neighbouring states as otherwise, the influx of these vehicles into the city will continue to grow and will negate the gains of pollution control measures," the report said. The court, which issued the notice last Friday, has given the Centre four weeks to reply The pollution report correlated increase in respirable suspended particulate matter (RSPM) and Nitrogen Oxide (NOX) levels with higher registration of diesel vehicles in Delhi. The number of diesel cars has increased by nearly 425 per cent over the last decade, but fell after the introduction of CNG, the report said. Every day 963 new vehicles ply Delhi's roads, of which 308 are diesel-run. While registration of petrol cars has increased at the annual rate of 8.5 per cent, diesel vehicle registrations have gone up by 16.6 per cent. Quoting information from the Society of Automobile Association of India, the report said, the market share of diesel cars has increased to over 30 per cent in the last 18 months and is expected to be 50 per cent by 2010, when Delhi hosts the Commonwealth Games. These additional vehicles, the report said, would release particulate matter equal to 30,000 diese1buses. This month, the respirable suspended particulate matter level touched 240 microgram per cubic metre, which is higher than the level in 2002 when CNG was introduced. "Diesel vehicles in 2004 contributed 23 per cent to RSPM levels," the report said. The report also said the emission from diesel vehicles is more toxic than petrol vehicles and cited various studies to substantiate this. The report also said that diesel cars meeting the Bharat Stage III emission standards are allowed to emit three times more NOX and RSPM than the petrol cars. "Petrol cars emit negligible particulate matter while every diesel car is allowed to emit 0.05 gram per kilometre under the Bharat Stage III norms," the report said. But in Europe the NOX and RSPM standards for petrol and diesel vehicles are similar, the report said. Pointing out that Pollution Under Control System, measuring the polluting level of diesel vehicles, has not worked the report said that the standards for the smoke density test for a PUC certificate was quite low. Hence, of the 50 diesel vehicles checked, none failed the test. "Worldwide the smoke density test has failed. Countries like Australia have adopted better technologies," the report said. EPCA also found out in June 2006 that some PUC centres were fudging their certificates, which it said, were issued without even starting the engine of the vehicles or sometimes by tinkering with the machines. Putting forth the point about the report, amicus curiae Harish Salve said the time has come to take corrective measures or the gains of introduction of CNG would be lost.
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I personally dont think this could ever come in effect... I think they can just ban the transport which is older than BharatIII... What do you say?

Anmol
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Old 21st November 2007, 11:14   #2
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I agree, they should not renew the fitness certificate of commercial vehicles not meeting BSII/III requirements and register only BSIII/IV vehicles going forward.

Similarly dont renew the registration of private vehciles older than 15 years not meeting BSII/III requirements.

That should do.

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I personally dont think this could ever come in effect... I think they can just ban the transport which is older than BharatIII... What do you say?

Anmol
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Old 21st November 2007, 11:34   #3
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Its a classic case of barking up the wrong tree. If you look at the number of trucks passing through delhi at night, belching out black smoke, you would know where all the SPM comes from. But late at night all these babus are sleeping.
Moreover checking trucks is not lucrative from a bribe point of view, and it also kills the state border check posts cash cow.
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Old 21st November 2007, 11:38   #4
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My suggestion

Install RFID tags on each vehicle(under the fuel cap). Have rfid readers mounted on fuel nozzle. The only codes that need to be programmed are the type of vehicle(petrol/diesel), the fuel capacity& nature of use(comemrcial/pvt). Depending upon these factors let a small microchip installed in the pump machine decide the cost of fuel/lt.
For private vehicles let there be no(or less) subsidy on diesel(remember in europe diesel is costlier than petrol).

Abscence of RFID tag will not fuel to be dispensed(so no one can fill diesel in a container).
At the end of the day, vehicle reg number can be matched with the records in RTO to chk if its used as pvt or commercial(and raise an alarm with police dept if any voilation).

This will go a long way reducing the subsidies for ppl in general

Regards,
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Old 21st November 2007, 11:40   #5
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Its the commercial diesels that are polluting this country's cities. We are such idiots when it comes to any public policies.
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Old 21st November 2007, 13:56   #6
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Of course, why pollution levels are back up in Delhi is because of one major factor-Gurgaon and the heavy increase in diesel Taveras/Qualis/Innovas, etc. plying to and fro between Delhi-Gurgaon.

I have stayed in Delhi almost all my life and till about 3-4 years ago, increase in vehicles used to be matched by road capacity increases resulting in only a marginal increase in travel time.

But, the Gurgaon related traffic of call centre cabs/taxis has completely overwhelmed the system not only in Gurgaon, but is now leading to a rapid deterioration of Delhi's traffic (which was always anarchic to begin with) and air quality (which had improved during the early-2000s). There would now be hardly any galli/road in Delhi where you would not see a `yellow number plate' commercial call centre cab. At most intersections leading to Gurgaon, by my experience, wait times have doubled/trebled over the last year. These include Dhaula Kuan, Olof Palme-Tula Ram, Moti Bag-Ring Road, Wellington Crescent, Palam Junction, Mehrauli-Gurgaon road.

By comparsion, NOIDA has lesser call centres, and traffic at most places remains decent even at peak times.

The worry about the Court's proposed action would be that such cabs would not be allowed to enter Delhi, which could lead to tit for tat retaliation by other states. Of course, both petrol and diesel are taxed highly, and then the Govt. says that they are subsidising.

What I do not understand is that while the actual cost of production of both petrol and diesel is nearly the same, why the 30% difference in their prices. Perhaps diesel needs to be subsidised for heavy trucks, but why for someone in an Octavia.
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Old 21st November 2007, 14:05   #7
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This will never happen. Our politicians and babus will never make this happen otherwise from where will they get their mamool from ??
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Old 21st November 2007, 14:05   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
By comparsion, NOIDA has lesser call centres, and traffic at most places remains decent even at peak times.
Thats not correct Vasudeva.
Traffic situation in Noida has also deteriorated a lot especially due to the Metro construction.
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Old 21st November 2007, 14:16   #9
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Yes I agree that traffic condition in NOIDA has worsened because of the metro, but that is not-diesel related, and one would hope that such metro-related congestion is permanent. Have you noticed the word `decent on most places'. I do travel to NOIDA quite regularly from my home in East Delhi and yes, the Atta/Sec 18 area and nearby places are now quite congested even off-peak (I went to Great India Place on Saturday 12PM, and taking a U-turn from Atta took 10 mins).

But unlike hopefully temporary metro related congestion in NOIDA, congestion in Gurgaon has been for long, permanent, and increasing. After going through the ordeal of navigating Gurgaon traffic at peak hours, NOIDA seems like a freeway! In a given stretch of 1 km, you may count the number of diesel call centre cabs.
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Old 21st November 2007, 14:30   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
What I do not understand is that while the actual cost of production of both petrol and diesel is nearly the same, why the 30% difference in their prices. Perhaps diesel needs to be subsidised for heavy trucks, but why for someone in an Octavia.
Diesel has 20-25% more energy than petrol. So in India, diesel passenger cars get 50% more benefit. Maybe we shouldn't have been having diesel thats more subsidized than petrol.

The least we can do is to force manufacturers to bring diesel emissions to the same level as petrol. But then how many manufacturers have this know how ? Shame on Indian automotive manufacturers who are just taking advantage of diesel and harming the environment.
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Old 21st November 2007, 14:41   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Its a classic case of barking up the wrong tree. If you look at the number of trucks passing through delhi at night, belching out black smoke, you would know where all the SPM comes from. But late at night all these babus are sleeping.
Moreover checking trucks is not lucrative from a bribe point of view, and it also kills the state border check posts cash cow.
Its just a case of 'its not me, its the govt/truckers/..' others.

There are more than enough tbhpians who drive 60-70km a day. Together, individual users are a large part.

And emissions are important for us to consider. be it from call center cabs, boleros, indicas or even from bikes.

and seriously, tsk, could you/anyone numerically (not anecdotally) prove that its all only the trucks? per passenger-km, i believe its call center cab sumo/indicas more anyday. and the individual users themselves - but most of us would presumably keep our cars in top condition to minimize pollution.

but then agian, SPM is not visible, so its not just a matter of black smoke, if I recall my envt courses right.

Last edited by phamilyman : 21st November 2007 at 14:48.
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Old 21st November 2007, 15:00   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
What I do not understand is that while the actual cost of production of both petrol and diesel is nearly the same, why the 30% difference in their prices. Perhaps diesel needs to be subsidised for heavy trucks, but why for someone in an Octavia.
The main reason of this cost difference is Diesel is more subsidised compare to petrol and goverment do it because of the heavy use of diesel in agriculture.
If I am not wrong, in all other countries, both petrol and diesel have same price.
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Old 21st November 2007, 15:04   #13
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Modern direct-injection diesel engines have a specific fuel consumption that is around 25% lower than comparable modern petrol engines. Because of the difference in energy density between petrol and diesel fuels, the advantage of diesel engines in joules is about 15%. The corresponding CO2 emissions are about 14% lower compared to a petrol engine. But diesels emit NOX which is causing smog and controversy.

The OECD has recently noted in `Cutting Transport CO2 Emissions’ that although diesel engines currently offer significantly better FE than petrol engines, but diesel has a higher CO2 intensity than petrol (ie more CO2 emitted per litre), so policies promoting diesel vehicles might not necessarily achieve any CO2 abatement. Approximate figures for kilogrammes of CO2 emitted per litre of fuel consumed with current engines are: diesel 2.6; petrol 2.4; sugar beet and grain ethanol 1.4; rapeseed/ biodiesel 1.3; sugar cane/ethanol 0.3. Although alternative fuels such as ethanol are less CO2 emitting, present prices of conventional diesel/petrol (inspite of recent price increases) have hampered investments in alternative fuels.

In Europe, new petrol vehicles sold in Europe from 2000 onwards (meeting Euro 3 or BS III in India) emit around 90% less CO, NOX and HC than vehicles sold in the 1980s, and emissions from new diesel vehicles have also been reduced significantly. This has contributed to reductions in local pollutants as newer vehicles with lower emissions have replaced older, more polluting vehicles. The vehicle emission standards were further tightened in 2005 with Euro 4. fter the introduction of these new standards, all new conventional petrol and diesel vehicles that meet these tighter standards will be extremely low emitters (and therefore ` near clean’) in terms of local air pollutants. The Euro 4 standards will achieve a 50% reduction in CO, HC and NOX emissions from new petrol vehicles, relative to Euro 3. For diesel vehicles, they will achieve a 50% reduction in NOX and PM emissions and a 20% reduction in CO emissions, relative to Euro 3.
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Old 21st November 2007, 15:08   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous View Post
The main reason of this cost difference is Diesel is more subsidised compare to petrol and goverment do it because of the heavy use of diesel in agriculture.
If I am not wrong, in all other countries, both petrol and diesel have same price.
Yes both petrol and diesel are priced at lower differentials in percentage in more free markets, where prices are not controlled, but taxes may vary because of incentives/disincentives. Diesel is more expensive in US, but somewhat cheaper in Europe. I had the Indian Petroleum Ministry stats that roughly 70% of diesel usage was in transport. Have that file on PC, but will post when able to access it.
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Old 21st November 2007, 15:12   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous View Post
The main reason of this cost difference is Diesel is more subsidised compare to petrol and goverment do it because of the heavy use of diesel in agriculture.
If I am not wrong, in all other countries, both petrol and diesel have same price.
Contrary to popular belief, diesel isn't subsidised in India. It's just that petrol is grossly overpriced causing people to wrongly conclude that diesel is subsidised. IIRC, it was in the 2001 budget that subsidy was removed from diesel.
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