Safari VTT or Scorpio Hawk- battle of the 2.2s

[jkdas]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

so actually your point is borne out - since the Scorp has more variants than the Safari per se.

Even comparing "like to like" - Scorpio 2.2 Crde vs Safari 2.2 VTT - for the period say Jan 08 onwards till date. The data would be slightly skewed because the Safari VTT always had more variants available than the Scorp 2.2.

You mean Safari comes in LX/EX/VX , 3 versions and Scorp has only 2 versions?

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by condor

Another way to look at it would be - the figures dont really prove anything since the Scorp figures are for the Scorp family (incl the M2DI), and the Safari for the Safari family.

The two have different price ranges. The Scorp's price range is lower - also making it more affordable. This point will definitely count for the taxi segment. For those who have not noticed it, lots of operators in the employee transportation area are going in for Scorp's. This is also contributing to the higher figures that the Scorp enjoys.

There is another factor that needs to be considered.

For the fiscal year 2004-05, the sales of the two vehicles were as under:

Scorpio: 31,662

Safari: 4,692

Thats correct, the Safari was at about 15% of Scorpio sales. There were two reasons for the same:

1. Tata were concentrating on their passenger CAR business, sorting out issues in the Indica/Go family and obviously trying to build market-share there.

2. The production capacity for the Safari was also limited - the concentration in the UV segment was on the Sumo. The Safari had a production run of all of 15 vehicles per day. Not exactly the kind of stuff to set the sales charts on fire.


It was only after the 3.0 Dicor that the company moved its sights on to this part of the market though the production run initially remained the same at about 15 or 18 per day - I remember waiting for my truck and being told that they only make that many per day! The result was that in the fiscal 2007-08, two years later, the same stats read:

Scorpio: 41,443

Safari: 19,078

And in the few months during this (calendar) year, Safari sales have been at about 70% of Scorpio sales month-on-month.

Yes you will still see more Scorps on the road. The Safari has been a mass-market vehicle for just about 2 years now, despite having 'existed' since 1997 or 1998, logging 4 digit figures every year with a 400-vehicle per month production run.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

No. It is usually a case of people with small minds and big egos not fitting into the scheme of things at this forum.

Mr. shankar balan spoke my words!

Originally Posted by suman

Why on earth would anyone need to make excuses? I'm now beginning to think that you read only half the post before shooting out a reply. Please read my posts - I've already given ALL the reasons why the Scorpio sales are better. And I'm not the marketing head of TATA , why would I need to make excuses about why the vehicle is selling or not selling! Sheesh......

Have you seen Safaris piling up in stockyards? Do post a few pics if you do. The production meets the demand. I think they are pretty happy with the sales.


Well, to each his own & I can see that you have a problem accepting the fact that the Safari is for an "exclusive" segment & the Scorpio isn't - no issues with that, each of us is entitled to our own opinion so......


Well, that is debatable - the mHawk is grossly overpriced for what it offers - I think a few of your Scorpio mates have acknowledged that as well. For a SUV in the 10+ segment not to be equipped with Airbags is downright highway robbery but then, that's not really surprising with Mahindra.

Lastly (time to get out of here), we keep ranting "sales-sales-sales" - Since this thread is about the Safari 2.2 vs the Scorpio Mhawk, can someone give the sales numbers for the Mhawk by month since inception? I think it will conclusively prove which one is selling more. Me, I'm not bothered though because, as I said, the Safari is a "niche" product & I really couldn't care less as long as I'm happy with my product

i do read you entire post. but i dont agree over your reasons over why scorpio sells more, im sorry.
i never said "safaris pile up in stockyards", all i said was scorpios dont. so in my post, i had meant that tatas make cars to sell.
yes, they are pretty happy with the sales because they have no othwr option, what else can you get out of a decade old SUV?
yes, i do have a problem accepting that the safari (or even the scorpio) can be termed "exclusive". what is so exclusive in it? is it a 4 crore car? does it have a carbon fibre body? if its not selling well, then is it exclusive? in that case, ambassador is also an exclusive car!

well, if mahindras are robbers, what about tata? are they dacoits? selling such sub standard, low quality and unreliable cars at 12 lakhs is a crime! just because their SUV offer airbags, does that make it a good car?

you are happy with your product, well and good. so am i. i cant give you the exact sales figures, but rest assured, i see more mHawks on mumbai roads than the VTT.

[raj_5004]

but neways, i guess Mr. tanveer has put an end to an interesting thread!!
kidding!

[LLL]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

We mods don't like handling infractions and deleting posts.

personally, i would like to delete mods.

Anyways, the intent of the thread was to figure out which car is better and i believe this forum was best placed to arrive at a good conclusion.

Having said that, there has to be an objective criteria on which one can claim that a particular suv is better.

Sales #s reflects the real public opinion. It eliminates the admirers and fence-sitters and reflect the people who truely believe in the product and are ready to put their money down for it.

Another metric that can be used in conjunction is JD power ratings and # of defects reported per car.

Another indicator would be that how many scorp/safari owners would buy the car again or recommend it to someone else or keep the car after 3/5/7 years.

Resale is another weight point that can be used to generate an objective criteria.

OT: Some folks have stated safari is better and reason is that it is my opinion - ofcourse you are entitled to your opinion but what value does it add to the thread?

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by LLL

personally, i would like to delete mods.

Anyways, the intent of the thread was to figure out which car is better and i believe this forum was best placed to arrive at a good conclusion.

Having said that, there has to be an objective criteria on which one can claim that a particular suv is better.

Sales #s reflects the real public opinion. It eliminates the admirers and fence-sitters and reflect the people who truely believe in the product and are ready to put their money down for it.
Another metric that can be used in conjunction is JD power ratings and # of defects reported per car.

Another indicator would be that how many scorp/safari owners would buy the car again or recommend it to someone else or keep the car after 3/5/7 years.

Resale is another weight point that can be used to generate an objective criteria.

OT: Some folks have stated safari is better and reason is that it is my opinion - ofcourse you are entitled to your opinion but what value does it add to the thread?

i agree to that. sales wont always necessarily point us to the best car of the lot, but among 2 or 3 similarly priced cars, it does reflect which car suits most of the requirements of the consumer.
well, as a scorpio owner for past 5 yrs and having bought an mHawk again, i would definietely recommend it to many. the resale value is high too.

[Jr Godzilla]

Originally Posted by adc

PS: When will the bickering end for sure? When Toyota Fortuner comes out at a price point of Innova - in fact in Thailand it is slightly lower AFAIK and then we can all change over - but then it will never happen over here and the Safari-Scorpio mudslingling will live for ever

Toyota Fortuner same as a Mahindra or Tata in handling on road it is good only offroad (Tested its ability in absolutely wet sand "sinking kinda sand" and its brilliant, effortless.)

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by Jr Godzilla

Toyota Fortuner same as a Mahindra or Tata

There ends the similarity, I am sure.
What constrains us is always the PRICE!!

IF that parameter is the same (even plus or minus 10%), we'll all go for that one. After all it is a Toyota! But it should not be as ugly as the Innova and they must offer 4WD option.

[nitrous]

Originally Posted by anupmathur

IF that parameter is the same (even plus or minus 10%), we'll all go for that one. After all it is a Toyota! But it should not be as ugly as the Innova and they must offer 4WD option.

Dream on,my friend.

Toyota will give it an Endeavour-ish price tag. If that is lower than endeavour, then its goodbye for Ford since we all know why the Endy sells.

I would really like to make a telephone call to the Toyota's President in India and ask why the hell the fortuner is still not out. Can someone give me his number,please?

[PAVAN KADAM]

C'mon Guys,

Each and every individual on this forum has his/her right to chalk out his opinions.

This discussion was pertaining only to T-BHP,the poll clearly indicates. that's what i've been mentioning about the scales favouring the Safari.

I dont know why this kind of crab management is prevailing in T-BHP, its like whatever you said will act against you.Lets not show our superiority complexes.There's nobody inferior here. In this case lets stop posting replies and Threads.

I dont have to do any kind of selling or coaxing people to buy a product, there is no necessity, there are few open minded people on earth who are smart enough to take what is beneficial to them and leave the others.

Unless we have an open mind during such discussions and have a happy head over our shoulders and reply, this kind of forum will benefit one and all.

I have not snapped at anyone in my replies here, but still see everyone doing so.Its not only me but others who have taken similiar beating here Guys we have no individual gains here.

The discussions always goes out of topic on any thread here.I see all moderators or Dist., BHPians maintain that we need to reply our individual opinions on a thread, but 70% of this thread has people commenting on an individual post.

Is this what we are here to do?

OK then..Ciao

[himanshugoswami]

as the thread starter, let me get a post in after 220 posts

I recently drove the mHawk for a considerable distance.

Now, i own and love the Safari 3.0, have not been too impressed with the 2.2 Safari (sorry guys, just IMO- no offence), and when i drove the mhawk, my first reaction was DAYUM!!!! What an engine!

this 2.2 is streets ahead in refinement, low end torque , NVH and driveability compared to the Safari 2.2. Unfortunately, most of the old Scorpio problems still remain with mHawk- cramped seats, bad shoulder room, handling etc.

But if one were to simply compare the engines, on present form, the mHawk is definitely a superior engine to theSafari 2.2

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

But if one were to simply compare the engines, on present form, the mHawk is definitely a superior engine to theSafari 2.2

Given that both the engines measure exactly 2179 CC, have been developed in "collaboration" with AVL and share the same features: twin-cam-four-valve set up, aluminium head, VGT, etc., I strongly suspect that the two constitute one and the same engine, much like Fiat's 1.3 that's used by so many manufacturers but with different nomenclatures.

Predictably, the promotional literatures of both Mahindra and Tata do not reveal much about the engine's parentage. This link in fact would have us believe that Mahindra developed the HAWK engine indigenously making no mention of the AVL connection:

:: Welcome to Mahindra Scorpio ::

I'm sure your friend at ERC knows the true inside story. Why don't you find out?

[shankar.balan]

Absolutely correct
Both engines share the same parentage and neither manufacturer really talks much about it.
I also suspect the same as you do in ref this 2.2 litre Common Rail Engine.
It is a distinct possibility that the technology is shared as is the case with many other engines developed in the past!
Good input Mr Direct Injection!
Cheers

Originally Posted by directinjection

Given that both the engines measure exactly 2179 CC, have been developed in "collaboration" with AVL and share the same features: twin-cam-four-valve set up, aluminium head, VGT, etc., I strongly suspect that the two constitute one and the same engine, much like Fiat's 1.3 that's used by so many manufacturers but with different nomenclatures.

Predictably, the promotional literatures of both Mahindra and Tata do not reveal much about the engine's parentage. This link in fact would have us believe that Mahindra developed the HAWK engine indigenously making no mention of the AVL connection:

:: Welcome to Mahindra Scorpio ::

I'm sure your friend at ERC knows the true inside story. Why don't you find out?

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Absolutely correct
Both engines share the same parentage and neither manufacturer really talks much about it.
I also suspect the same as you do in ref this 2.2 litre Common Rail Engine.
It is a distinct possibility that the technology is shared as is the case with many other engines developed in the past!
Good input Mr Direct Injection!
Cheers

The hardware may be similar, but an important point to note is that in case of modern crdi engines the tuning and electronics and ECU settings play a big role in power and torque delivery.
For example, the exact same engine does 120bhp in the Tata sumo, with delivering lower torque, but a better balanced torque curve.
The Mahindra Scorpio is a much lighter vehicle than the Tata Safari, and 120bhp with proper torque curve and power delivery means it has a much better driveability.
Mahindra did not go for 140bhp due to Gearbox and tranny issues. With restricting the output to 120bhp Mahindra can reuse parts in the drivetrain.
Instead Mahindra has concentrated on Power delivery, and ensured a wider powerband.
This means that while in the Safari,(2.2 as well as 3.0), the torque is good but the powerband in narrow, in the Mahindra it has a better spread.
I know the argument put forward that "you can learn" to extract maximum from the safari powerband, but when we do the comparison it is best to assume that the driver has know knowledge of either.
To put forward a corollary, there is truck racing in the west, and the drivers can take trucks around bends faster than you can take a RS around the bend, but that does not mean that the truck is a better handling vehicle.
So from purely puttering around the Scorpio is much better. Even the 2.6 CRDe was a delight.
The Safari 3.0 was torturous in comparison, and the 2.2 definitely narrows the gap.
I have never driven the 2.2 mHawk, so I can't comment how much better it is compared to Safari, but as compared to 2.6 CRDe, the gap stands narrowed considerably.
The Safari wins for me because I put a lot of weight on comfort. The Scorpio is cramped, and unless I put the passenger seat fully backward my knees touch the dash. I find it weird that the indica has better room inside.
Moreover I did not find the comfort levels of Scorpio to my liking. I have a bad back, and lumbar support and comfort is of utmost importance for me.
Last but not the least, I find Scorpio's looks spartan as compared to Safari's.

So on the engine front the Scorpio may win the battle both on paper and real, when I look at the overall vehicle and the cost I have to pay for stuff(I frankly did not find tire pressure monitor, climate control etc., that hot, have driven the jeep liberty with all these), the Safari wins.

If there was no 2.2 I would not have even thought of the Safari as my next vehicle, but with the 2.2 its a strong contender.

I have seen many people on the forum who bought the Safari after the 2.2 came, and that speaks volumes about this vehicle.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

as the thread starter, let me get a post in after 220 posts

I recently drove the mHawk for a considerable distance.

Now, i own and love the Safari 3.0, have not been too impressed with the 2.2 Safari (sorry guys, just IMO- no offence), and when i drove the mhawk, my first reaction was DAYUM!!!! What an engine!

this 2.2 is streets ahead in refinement, low end torque , NVH and driveability compared to the Safari 2.2. Unfortunately, most of the old Scorpio problems still remain with mHawk- cramped seats, bad shoulder room, handling etc.

But if one were to simply compare the engines, on present form, the mHawk is definitely a superior engine to theSafari 2.2

well, i agree to you. being a scorpio owner in the past, i was strongly inclined towards the safari as my new purchase (as i was not really keen to purchase the same vehicle again!). more so when i realised that the safari was 140 bhp v/s 120 bhp of the mHawk. as i drive myself and as i love to drive, driving comfort was my top priority. secondly, it has to be an SUV!
one test drive of both the vehicles was enough to convey that when it comes to driving pleasure, scorpio rules. the safari's poor bottom end response dint impress a city dweller like me. its positive virtues like space and ride quality dint convince me enough especially when i considered that i have to pay a premium for two LCD screens and a reverse camera! moreover, the scorpio's ride quality was good for me. i am 6'2" tall and i was quite comfortable in my old scorpio. of course, i wont term it spacious, but it had "adequate" space.

as far as the engine goes, a friend of mine works in mahindra, engine department. i was about to buy the CRDe scorpio last year in jan. he was the one who told me that a 140 bhp engine named 'eagle' is in the pipeline, better wait for it. mahindra had started this project even before tata did. but the mHawk launch got delayed because of the suspension tweaks mahindra had to do and also the additional features they intended to offer. finally, mahindra offered a 120 bhp of the engine. but more interestingly, scorpio still has a better power/weight ratio than the safari. this gives it a slight performance advantage.