Safari VTT or Scorpio Hawk- battle of the 2.2s

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

To put forward a corollary, there is truck racing in the west, and the drivers can take trucks around bends faster than you can take a RS around the bend, but that does not mean that the truck is a better handling vehicle.

perfect post. and i loved the comparison he did (highlighted in bold)...!!!

[shankar.balan]

this engine and tuning part I completely agree with TSK

rest of it - well lets just say its a matter of personal choice.

Even I was initially highly impressed with the 2.2 Safari but preferred in the balance to go with the Scorp 2.6 instead.

Ive put down my own comparison in the earlier My Impressions post as my own feedback to site members.

In terms of comfort, while I do agree the Safari has more legroom and rear seat is very comfy, despite my being 6 ft 2 inches tall as well as big built, I am finding my Scorp more than adequate in terms of comfort, head room, legroom, shoulder room etc etc. (Of course I thankfully dont have a bad back) - and if I may say so, even my 66 year old Dad who is a 6 footer, finds the rear seat in the Scorp comfy and roomy- of course while being strapped in properly.

Therefore, probably the best thing for any potential buyer of either of these vehicles to do, is to go and take a proper test drive of both and as per what he/ she wants from his/ her personal transport, decide accordingly.

best I can suggest since each human being reacts differently and feels differently about various aspects.

cheers

Originally Posted by tsk1979

The hardware may be similar, but an important point to note is that in case of modern crdi engines the tuning and electronics and ECU settings play a big role in power and torque delivery.
For example, the exact same engine does 120bhp in the Tata sumo, with delivering lower torque, but a better balanced torque curve.
The Mahindra Scorpio is a much lighter vehicle than the Tata Safari, and 120bhp with proper torque curve and power delivery means it has a much better driveability.
Mahindra did not go for 140bhp due to Gearbox and tranny issues. With restricting the output to 120bhp Mahindra can reuse parts in the drivetrain.
Instead Mahindra has concentrated on Power delivery, and ensured a wider powerband.
This means that while in the Safari,(2.2 as well as 3.0), the torque is good but the powerband in narrow, in the Mahindra it has a better spread.
I know the argument put forward that "you can learn" to extract maximum from the safari powerband, but when we do the comparison it is best to assume that the driver has know knowledge of either.
To put forward a corollary, there is truck racing in the west, and the drivers can take trucks around bends faster than you can take a RS around the bend, but that does not mean that the truck is a better handling vehicle.
So from purely puttering around the Scorpio is much better. Even the 2.6 CRDe was a delight.
The Safari 3.0 was torturous in comparison, and the 2.2 definitely narrows the gap.
I have never driven the 2.2 mHawk, so I can't comment how much better it is compared to Safari, but as compared to 2.6 CRDe, the gap stands narrowed considerably.
The Safari wins for me because I put a lot of weight on comfort. The Scorpio is cramped, and unless I put the passenger seat fully backward my knees touch the dash. I find it weird that the indica has better room inside.
Moreover I did not find the comfort levels of Scorpio to my liking. I have a bad back, and lumbar support and comfort is of utmost importance for me.
Last but not the least, I find Scorpio's looks spartan as compared to Safari's.

So on the engine front the Scorpio may win the battle both on paper and real, when I look at the overall vehicle and the cost I have to pay for stuff(I frankly did not find tire pressure monitor, climate control etc., that hot, have driven the jeep liberty with all these), the Safari wins.

If there was no 2.2 I would not have even thought of the Safari as my next vehicle, but with the 2.2 its a strong contender.

I have seen many people on the forum who bought the Safari after the 2.2 came, and that speaks volumes about this vehicle.

[shatrughna]

Its interesting to follow up this thread and actually catch up with the different opinions of the users here. In the beginning when this thread was opened, there was no hope scorpio 2.2 advocated against Safari 2.2 and even now the results show the same.

What has of course changed with Raj and Shankar giving their comments and sharing their ownership experiences is that we have got a much more balanced opinion. Thanks to you all.

Let me add here at the cost of duplication is that the engines of both the vehicles are developed with AVL, Austria and as TSK put it that ECU mappings etc matter a lot. What here makes the difference, other than the weight, shape, size, etc. is that Mhawk controls/ sensor is developed by Bosch and that of VTT2.2 is done by delphi ( this is as per the info shared by Sameel) and Sameel says that Mhawk engine is much more sophisticated compared to the one developed by Delphi.

Decision to keep Mhawk detuned to 120 bhp is because of tranny issues as TSK said but then its the same engine that can produce upto 170bhp and Petes is available for Scoprio ( old 2.6 CRDe as well as new 2.2 engine) and probably the overall life of this engine is better than the Safari's engine.

I am following this thread very closely and all the threads on Safari/ Scorpio as I am still not too sure about which one should I pick and monsoons have started here so got to decide fast now. May be I am allowing myself some time to digest the looks of scorpio and convince myself to live without EBD,BA, Airbags, Elec ORVMS, leather seats etc. etc. ( Guys am I shouting VLX!!)

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by shatrughna

May be I am allowing myself some time to digest the looks of scorpio and convince myself to live without EBD,BA, Airbags, Elec ORVMS, leather seats etc. etc. ( Guys am I shouting VLX!!)

You are, and should be, the only one to answer these questions for yourself. A lot would depend on your intended applications for the vehicle.

As a satisfied owner of the 2.6 CRDe, my recommendation would be for the Scorpio. If you are not looking for 4X4, why aren't you considering an Innova? Looks?

[Jr Godzilla]

AutoPundit : Indian automobile news and reviews 2007 July

[bblost]

The scorpio in the above picture is discussed here:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...uspension.html (scorpio lift modification/suspension)

Its a MOD job and not a factory product.

[Jr Godzilla]

Originally Posted by bblost

The scorpio in the above picture is discussed here:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...uspension.html (scorpio lift modification/suspension)

Its a MOD job and not a factory product.

i know man ..... cheers!!

[shatrughna]

Originally Posted by anupmathur

You are, and should be, the only one to answer these questions for yourself. A lot would depend on your intended applications for the vehicle.

As a satisfied owner of the 2.6 CRDe, my recommendation would be for the Scorpio. If you are not looking for 4X4, why aren't you considering an Innova? Looks?

Ha Ha ! I guess I am.
Innova- I love it but it wont love me as I intend to travel in monsoons in rural areas and I guess Mahindra is a better mud plugger than an Innova. As far as a 4*4 is concerned, getaway is another choice but then comes with older engine 2.6 Crde and worse that its just a five seater. TL4*4 is not available for registration as a pvt vehicle and I hate the yellow boards.

Safari -4*4- VX is a dream and shall remain so , I guess as my eligibility is just 12.5 Lakhs( corporate registration) and Safari is 13.5 Lakhs.

Safari EX 4*4 and Scorpio VLX with company regn come at similar prices but then I get at least a more refined though lower in bhp output, a better and more usable jump seats for 6th/ 7th passenger( kids) and ABS in Scorpio which is not available in EX 4*4 and hate the door handles of Safari.
So may be this year its black VLX and if I hate it as much, then next year may queue up at a Tata Showroom which I didnt visit again ever since the sensex fell steeply.

[condor]

shatrughna : TL4*4 is not available for registration as a pvt vehicle ...

Any pick-up, including the TL, can be registered as a pvt vehicle - if it is a crew-cab version. Only the single-cab/ 2 door versions have to be compulsorily registered as a commercial. IIRC we have discussed this before, so you could do a search for the TL ..

OT, if you are considering the TL, suggest you check the rear-seat once for travel comfort.

[babureddy]

When we are looking for a good SUV, why would you want to look out for a resale value...

Originally Posted by raj_5004

i agree to that. sales wont always necessarily point us to the best car of the lot, but among 2 or 3 similarly priced cars, it does reflect which car suits most of the requirements of the consumer.
well, as a scorpio owner for past 5 yrs and having bought an mHawk again, i would definietely recommend it to many. the resale value is high too.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by babureddy

When we are looking for a good SUV, why would you want to look out for a resale value...

why cant we? when we are comparing two vehicles head to head, when we are discussing about their pricing, FE, plastic quality, refinement, "image", looks, et al, then why not resale value?
SUVs are not only about off roading, right?

maybe it wont matter to you (and frankly to me too ), but many on this forum looking out for an SUV may want to consider its resale value too. they may not necessarily go off roading in their scorpio/safari, they must have bought because of its space, image or simply because they have more than 5 members to transport!!!

[babureddy]

I still did not understand about buying a SUV based on its city driving capabilities...if I am just looking for a vehicle for city use...i would really prefer a compact car (my preference would be palio/swift)...more comfortable to drive and what not in city...
atleast i think we will be using the LCD and reverse camera more than rain, air indicators...this is what i usually prefer when it comes to gadgets or whatever they are called...
also, a lot of Scorpio owners have agreed that it is a bit cramped for a normal person (height)...while you are finding it comfortable..a bit confused...

Originally Posted by raj_5004

well, i agree to you. being a scorpio owner in the past, i was strongly inclined towards the safari as my new purchase (as i was not really keen to purchase the same vehicle again!). more so when i realised that the safari was 140 bhp v/s 120 bhp of the mHawk. as i drive myself and as i love to drive, driving comfort was my top priority. secondly, it has to be an SUV!
one test drive of both the vehicles was enough to convey that when it comes to driving pleasure, scorpio rules. the safari's poor bottom end response dint impress a city dweller like me. its positive virtues like space and ride quality dint convince me enough especially when i considered that i have to pay a premium for two LCD screens and a reverse camera! moreover, the scorpio's ride quality was good for me. i am 6'2" tall and i was quite comfortable in my old scorpio. of course, i wont term it spacious, but it had "adequate" space.

[babureddy]

Is safari still costlier than a scropio...atleast for what i knew or know its the other way round...let us compare 2.2 to 2.2...and if my understanding is correct about the price...then what is the difference in the pricing during resale value...cause, if i am not wrong...the amount we save now has more value than what we get when we sell it after a few years...keeping in mind the inflation....so after this i doubt to find out whether there will be any advantage in resale...if feel the other way round...
if its for space...is'nt the safari has it more...
and we can't just speak about image or looks since it is individuals view and nothing more...i think you will agree on this...

Originally Posted by raj_5004

why cant we? when we are comparing two vehicles head to head, when we are discussing about their pricing, FE, plastic quality, refinement, "image", looks, et al, then why not resale value?
SUVs are not only about off roading, right?

maybe it wont matter to you (and frankly to me too ), but many on this forum looking out for an SUV may want to consider its resale value too. they may not necessarily go off roading in their scorpio/safari, they must have bought because of its space, image or simply because they have more than 5 members to transport!!!

[shatrughna]

Originally Posted by condor

Any pick-up, including the TL, can be registered as a pvt vehicle - if it is a crew-cab version. Only the single-cab/ 2 door versions have to be compulsorily registered as a commercial. IIRC we have discussed this before, so you could do a search for the TL ..

OT, if you are considering the TL, suggest you check the rear-seat once for travel comfort.

I have spoken to all the dealers and even the Tata Motors Customer Service also- NO LUCK.

In case you know someone who can get it done for me- my cheque is ready with thanks.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by babureddy

I still did not understand about buying a SUV based on its city driving capabilities...if I am just looking for a vehicle for city use...i would really prefer a compact car (my preference would be palio/swift)...more comfortable to drive and what not in city...
atleast i think we will be using the LCD and reverse camera more than rain, air indicators...this is what i usually prefer when it comes to gadgets or whatever they are called...
also, a lot of Scorpio owners have agreed that it is a bit cramped for a normal person (height)...while you are finding it comfortable..a bit confused...

the reason i cant buy a palio/swift for city driving is that by dad has a backache problem. he cant bend to get in saloon cars. so the only choice we has was the safari 2.2 or scorpio 2.2 (we already had the innova)...
also, i used to drive an esteem and believe me, i find the scorpio more driveable in city.
again, i drive my scorp for 80 kms everyday and i am absolutely comfortable in it. i am 6'2" tall and has no space problems with it. of course, the safari is more spacious, but as i said, the scorpio has "adequate" space. so when i was comfortable in the scorp and found its driveability better than the safari, i confirmed the scorp as my next car, AGAIN! i hope i cleared your confusion!

about LCD screens, i drive myself. so whats the use of LCD screens for me? even if i talk on general terms, how many times would i see the same movie again and again? or should i buy a new VCD everyday?? have you used the reverse camera in the safari? it has got a wide focal lens (also referred as fish eye lens) to give a broad view and hence it does not indicate the distance precisely... i found it a pain to use. i find the sensors better.

the rain sensors work perfectly in the rains here in mumbai. i dont have to switch on/off the wipers nor increase/decrease it speed. its a convenience factor to me.

Originally Posted by babureddy

Is safari still costlier than a scropio...atleast for what i knew or know its the other way round...let us compare 2.2 to 2.2...and if my understanding is correct about the price...then what is the difference in the pricing during resale value...cause, if i am not wrong...the amount we save now has more value than what we get when we sell it after a few years...keeping in mind the inflation....so after this i doubt to find out whether there will be any advantage in resale...if feel the other way round...
if its for space...is'nt the safari has it more...
and we can't just speak about image or looks since it is individuals view and nothing more...i think you will agree on this...

on road price in mumbai:
safari 2.2 4x2 = 12.77 lakhs
scorpio 2.2 = 11.35 lakhs
scorpio = better resale value
therefore, scorpio = huge savings