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Old 26th January 2008, 04:48   #61
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they are like our very own slum dwellers or labour class...it's just that they are fair and talk in english apart from that there is no difference... (please dont think I'am prejudiced or something...this is just an analogy)
I would definitely second that...very good observation..
I doubt if a majority of USA citizens have something like a formal education. The president doesnt know how to spell potato. Looks like a caucasian version of laaloo
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Old 26th January 2008, 18:04   #62
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"I would also agree with the fact that the western culture seriously lacks morals and family values, I have lived here for a while and i can vouch for it, Our culture is far superior and rich in moral and family values beyond any doubt."

This is the sort of opinion that is blatantly racist, offensive and ignorant and frankly some thing I hear a lot of in India from even the most educated, widely traveled Indians, and here we are commenting on the insularity of hick town Americans. I would rather have Americans who are ignorant of India than Indians who think they have a monopoly of morality and human values.

Feeling superior is frankly silly, the need to feel superior part from being extremely childish has blinded us from confronting the huge problems that exist in our country that have everything to do with the total absence of morality and integrity and create fiction about ourselves by appropriating basic human values. Maybe its time we stop rushing to pass judgment on other people on the morality scale, and take a minute to reflect on our own realities, how about judging ourselves now.

Can any mature, informed, non-racist individual really believe morality or family values is unique to them? Family is the basic block of human civilization, parents love their kids everywhere. Human values are universal. Every people have a history, a culture, thats not a matter of superiority unless you are of the Nazi/Taliban mindset.

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Old 27th January 2008, 03:40   #63
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"I would also agree with the fact that the western culture seriously lacks morals and family values, I have lived here for a while and i can vouch for it, Our culture is far superior and rich in moral and family values beyond any doubt."

This is the sort of opinion that is blatantly racist, offensive and ignorant and frankly some thing I hear a lot of in India from even the most educated, widely traveled Indians, and here we are commenting on the insularity of hick town Americans. I would rather have Americans who are ignorant of India than Indians who think they have a monopoly of morality and human values.

I am just going to help you along here, THIS IS IS THE SORT OF ATTITUDE THAT IS EVALUATING THE SITUATION CORRECTLY, the reason you have heard this from widely traveled Indians is because they have experienced it first hand and it is true. Most Americans leave their parents in an old age home when they get old, the key word here is MOST so just sit back down and relax. I know this because I volunteer at an old people's home and have seen it first hand. I am not ignorant of American values, you are ignorant of the facts Raul. This is just one of things they lack values in, there are a plethora of of other things I could mention, but will refrain from in the interest of space and time. Many American friends of mine on several occasions have mentioned how "our" (yes yours and my) values are way better than what they have. I quote this phrase verbatim of what my roommate's girlfriend said to me, she said "Don't you think Americans have no culture?".

Feeling superior is frankly silly, the need to feel superior part from being extremely childish has blinded us from confronting the huge problems that exist in our country that have everything to do with the total absence of morality and integrity and create fiction about ourselves by appropriating basic human values. Maybe its time we stop rushing to pass judgment on other people on the morality scale, and take a minute to reflect on our own realities, how about judging ourselves now.

How is feeling superior being silly? when you feel superior, you are confident and confidence is never a bad thing. This also gives rise to a thing called Patriotism. Let me guess you are one of those armchair analysts, those that that just whine and complain and don't do anything about the problem. What have you done about the problems that we have in India? Please explain.

Can any mature, informed, non-racist individual really believe morality or family values is unique to them? Family is the basic block of human civilization, parents love their kids everywhere. Human values are universal. Every people have a history, a culture, thats not a matter of superiority unless you are of the Nazi/Taliban mindset.
I just explained this earlier, morals and values have a lot more to do than parental love for their kids, parental love is human instinct ingrained into our DNA. The dictionary defines values as "Beliefs of a person or social group in which they have an emotional investment". Again here the key word is Social group. I suggest you do your basic research on basic terms and their meanings before you lash out against someone. In fact you seem like one of those Indians that criticizes their own country and believes the western countries are better, one of those that thinks imported goods are far superior and makes you look cool if you purchase them, one of those Indians during the British rule that worked with the British government against the their own countrymen.

It is a well known fact around the world that India has great values and morals. So I guess everyone in the world is immature, racist and a Nazi.

I certainly did not mean to make this personal, but like Sir Isaac Newton said "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction".
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Old 27th January 2008, 15:56   #64
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I just explained this earlier, morals and values have a lot more to do than parental love for their kids, parental love is human instinct ingrained into our DNA. The dictionary defines values as "Beliefs of a person or social group in which they have an emotional investment". Again here the key word is Social group. I suggest you do your basic research on basic terms and their meanings before you lash out against someone. In fact you seem like one of those Indians that criticizes their own country and believes the western countries are better, one of those that thinks imported goods are far superior and makes you look cool if you purchase them, one of those Indians during the British rule that worked with the British government against the their own countrymen.

It is a well known fact around the world that India has great values and morals. So I guess everyone in the world is immature, racist and a Nazi.

I certainly did not mean to make this personal, but like Sir Isaac Newton said "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction".
I am sorry, but you are stereotyping people here. This has nothing to do with patriotism.And by the way Patriotism is different from Jingoism. You have every right to feel good about your country. But at the same time you should be ready to accept that everything is not rosy out here.

You have given example of how 'average' American thinks you are a Mexican. Guess what? Same thing happens here. Here an 'average' Indian thinks that every white skinned foreigner is an American. I am telling this from my first hand experience. And we all know how we treat foreign tourists in our country.

So the point here is not what the average American thinks about India and Indian products. Its about those 'well-informed' analysts, media etc who are passing their judgments.
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Old 27th January 2008, 17:28   #65
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Your argument as much value as me saying that Indians are perverts based on the massive sexual harassment that goes on in places like Delhi and Mumbai some of which I have personally experienced. So on the basis of that and the multiple new years incidents in Mumbai and around the country I think we can now conclude we are all perverts.

The same goes or the caste system, alive and well in interiors of the country, maybe take a trip to Rajashtan, MP, Tamil Nadu etc sometimes or even Mumbai during marriage time ergo we are all racists.

How about the massive corruption that has ruined this country, ever take a look at the UN indices for corruption or perhaps more important human development. How does that tally to your claims about values and morality in one of the most corrupt countries in the world. I guess ignoring these realities makes us very patriotic and creating fiction about ourselves by thinking we are more moral or cultured keeps the illusion alive just so that people like you can feel good about themselves.

I am sorry rather than improving the situation in India and believe me its dire for those of us, more than 80% actually, this just perpetuates it, camel in the sand. The first step to solving a problem is to identify it and acknowledge it. Things are not ok in India.

You make a lot of presumptions, too many for sensible debate. I don't hate Indians but I don't hate other people either, I am a humanist. I believe in humanity. Societies are made up of all sorts of people and you can't generalize over a population.

However some societies have done better than other in providing a better life to their citizens, I believe there is a lot of value there that we could learn from if we are interested in improving the quality of life of our all Indians, not a fraction, not a few. Modernity and life as we know it today is thanks to western civilization. Like I said earlier for me its human progress, for the tribal minded this is perhaps difficult to swallow.

"It is a well known fact around the world that India has great values and morals. So I guess everyone in the world is immature, racist and a Nazi." By who? This is racism. Please look it up in the dictionary. For someone to claim so proudly one group of people are more moral or cultured than others and others less so is unbelievably offensive and cannot be accepted in civilized society.

I don't see any point in engaging further with an individual who can make a comment like that straight faced. I don't think its malicious which would be dangerous, just misguided.

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Old 27th January 2008, 17:50   #66
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I am also interested in knowing "Great values and morals". I havent found any.
If not allowing women the same freedoms as men(Dress, social activities, freedom of movement at any time alone) is a symbol of "Moral upliftment" than God save this country.

Morals and Values are not "Good and Bad". Its the way they are.
Just because a certain society does not
follow that same norms as yours does not make that society bad.
Its just that the society is different.
What matters is humanity.
Humanity is TOTALLY MISSING from our society.

Ever watch a bollywood movie. People with disabilities like stammering/physical handicaps" are made fun of. Very good morals I must say.
The entire audience laughs when a certain character stammers on the screen.

Most of the govt offices are inaccessible to people with disabilities.

The message is clear, if you are not able bodied and fit, go die.

when I went out of this country for the first time, what struck me was not the development or roads or infrastructure, it was the "Value of Human life". The principle that every human being, whether he/she has legs or not, has the right to access every public building, every shopping mall.

Kudos to you Raul, for calling a spade and a spade.

All this development and forex inflow in the country is definitely a good thing, and a sign of progress, but what needs development is the society, which with each incoming dollar is going more towards degeneration.

But then its not our fault, its the western influence!
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Old 27th January 2008, 18:09   #67
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Ever watch a bollywood movie. People with disabilities like stammering/physical handicaps" are made fun of. Very good morals I must say.
The entire audience laughs when a certain character stammers on the screen.
Well said tsk1979. While I may not go as far as to say that humanity is TOTALLY missing from our society I would agree with you on most points. The mamking fun of disabilities part is really insensitive. Not just stammering but even non functioning limbs.

We have special compartments for the handicapped in local trains but god knows how they expect a person in a wheel chair to get to the platform of a local train station. This is one area we really need to improve on.
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Old 27th January 2008, 19:01   #68
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This thread has taken a strange turn. We started off talking about how Americans know very little about rest of the country/world, which most of us have many stories about. But how did it turn into we are superior to Americans?

As Tanveer mentioned, there is no value for Human life in India. Just consider a highway accident in India, what are the chances are you will get good emergency care? Isn't that the worst nightmare of most of us car enthusiasts? In addition, most private hospital/clinics turn away accident patients to avoid hassle with cops. Although it is not required to get police report anymore to treat emergencies, the private hospitals still use that logic since cops will harass anyway. Now compare the same situation with America, where accident patient will be air-lifted if need arises. Here you'll have to own a chopper yourself to be air-lifted.

Let's bury this superiority complex. We are no beacons of morals and values, not when women cannot walk around in streets without getting molested. We live in one of the most corrupt (morally and literally) countries in the world. We have no business pointing fingers at America. Poking fun at American ignorance is one thing, but comparison of morality and values is something else.
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Old 27th January 2008, 19:18   #69
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To put it in a nutshell, ours is the most hypocritical society on earth starting from me.
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Old 27th January 2008, 19:58   #70
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To put it in a nutshell, ours is the most hypocritical society on earth starting from me.
x2

(twenty twenty)
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Old 27th January 2008, 20:12   #71
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To put it in a nutshell, ours is the most hypocritical society on earth starting from me.
To put it in a nutshell every socitey has its own positives and negatives and no culture is really superior to any culture.

To bring the topic back on track I believe now with Tata we are getting noticed as a company that is capable of competing in the automobile Indusrtry. Im not sure about how seriously were being taken right now but were being noticed and thats a start. The Japanese and more recently the Koreans also had a tough time being recognized as serious contenders but now they have proved themselves in the automobile indusstry and its only a matter of time before we are too.

Dont expect everything you hear about our automobile industry to be good. If we heard that there was a $2500 car from China or Thailand how seriously would we take it? Im sure we would question its safetly and wonder if it would be any good at all.We arent known for our cars and its going to take some time before we can prove ourselves. Im 100% sure it will happen and its just a matter of time.

btw I noticed that a lot of youll referred to the journalist as a gora. How do you know he is white? and even if he is isnt the term gora a little rude? I mean we wouldnt like to be refferred to as a Darkie like in the days of the Raj now would we?

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Old 27th January 2008, 20:28   #72
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To put it in a nutshell every socitey has its own positives and negatives and no culture is really superior to any culture.

Agreed, but still our society is hypocritical.

Coming to the Nano. Yes, it is a great thing for India, but how long will Tata be able to price it at a Lakh ? Even the M-800 came out for Rs.45,000 back in 1984/85.

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Old 27th January 2008, 20:40   #73
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Agreed, but still our society is hypocritical.

Coming to the Nano. Yes, it is a great thing for India, but how long will Tata be able to price it at a Lakh ? Even the M-800 came out for Rs.45,000 back in 1984/85.
Our society is definatly hypocritical.

Consider how much 45k is worth today taking into account inflation.
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Old 27th January 2008, 20:46   #74
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Our society is definatly hypocritical.

Consider how much 45k is worth today taking into account inflation.
to give you an idea, a 25 year old (1959) amby was worth that money then. See the massive difference in price ?
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Old 27th January 2008, 20:53   #75
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to give you an idea, a 25 year old (1959) amby was worth that money then. See the massive difference in price ?
I believe cars didnt even go down in value much at that time because it was so hard to get new car and a new car didnt really mean a reliable car. I hear that some people even sold their cars at a profit after using them for a few years.

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