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Old 8th July 2010, 20:32   #196
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I think what we need now is an electric car that is practical enough to use.
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Old 8th July 2010, 20:54   #197
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Well, every company has products in bottom spectrum. Honda makes lawn movers, GE makes basic electric stuff, GM makes basic commercial vehicles too. Merc makes trucks. Tata also makes Dye's. Companies operate in every segment they can make a profit. Why don't we hear this argument about them(there were people who said tata should stick to trucks). Bajaj technically is very competent. Can they make a quality car! Wait and see. Why write-off the product even before it is launched or even before the details are out? And why does this happen only to our indian companies?

Why does Bajaj only remind of ricks not pulsur? This is a company operating with best possible operating margins for years.


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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
I don't think so, any more than the Jeep reputation of Mahindras rubbing off on their two wheelers!
Apples to orange comparision.

Last edited by airbender : 8th July 2010 at 20:57.
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Old 8th July 2010, 21:37   #198
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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Well, every company has products in bottom spectrum. Honda makes lawn movers, GE makes basic electric stuff, GM makes basic commercial vehicles too. Merc makes trucks. Tata also makes Dye's. Companies operate in every segment they can make a profit. Why don't we hear this argument about them(there were people who said tata should stick to trucks). Bajaj technically is very competent. Can they make a quality car! Wait and see. Why write-off the product even before it is launched or even before the details are out? And why does this happen only to our indian companies?

Why does Bajaj only remind of ricks not pulsur? This is a company operating with best possible operating margins for years.


Apples to orange comparision.
There are only a few companies which operate over a wide product range and still succeed in cars / bikes as well. They are exceptions. The Korean chaebols went that way, lost the plot and failed. Remember Hyundai electronics and Samsung Motors? IIRC Yamaha tried to become a car maker and fielded a car with their own engine in F1 some years back. It was still born.

Basically I am not a fan of copycat companies/products. When they announce such a cheap, me too car, it is but natural that people will think of a spruced up auto with four wheels and not of the Pulsar! Mind you, I am talking of only first impressions here, and I don't deny they can change after seeing the product. But it will be a miracle if that happens, IMO.

I once bought a lemon called KB 100 RTZ from Bajaj many moons ago. More than the product proving to be a lemon, what was galling was the way they
turned up their nose at my complaints. I vowed to neither buy a Bajaj product ever again nor allow anyone I know to buy one, if I could help it. And have since then changed the minds of at least a dozen relatives / friends who were contemplating a Bajaj product and pointed them elsewhere! I know it sounds childish, but what else can one do against a mighty corporation? I don't deny things could be totally different with them after so many years, but my view of them will always be through that prism!

Even otherwise, I personally will not buy a car from BAL, any more than I will buy a bike from Ford or a fridge from Honda!

As for apples to oranges comparison, not really. Both are automotive companies, and both think their success in one product line can be replicated in the other! Do you feel Mahindra is succeeding? I don't think so.

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Old 8th July 2010, 21:50   #199
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I once bought a lemon called KB 100 RTZ from Bajaj many moons ago.
It was from Kawasaki Bajaj and not Bajaj. That 2 stroke motorcycle is a legend.
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Old 8th July 2010, 21:56   #200
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It was from Kawasaki Bajaj and not Bajaj. That 2 stroke motorcycle is a legend.
No, not a legend, by any stretch of imagination. It can't hold a candle to the RX 100 or the Shogun, and can't even catch their smoke on the road! I know, because my next bike was a Shogun.

And you think there was a separate company called Kawasaki-bajaj and BAL had nothing to do with it?
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Old 8th July 2010, 22:01   #201
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And you think there was a separate company called Kawasaki-bajaj and BAL had nothing to do with it?
No, i meant that it was essentially a Kawasaki product, sold under the Kawasaki-Bajaj JV.


And BTW, as for your Mahindra two wheelers comment, Mahindra is just selling Kinetic scoots under their brand name. The Mahindra Duro, for example, is the Kinetic Nova 125, re-branded and sold by M&M.
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Old 8th July 2010, 22:09   #202
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Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
No, i meant that it was essentially a Kawasaki product, sold under the Kawasaki-Bajaj JV.


And BTW, as for your Mahindra two wheelers comment, Mahindra is just selling Kinetic scoots under their brand name. The Mahindra Duro, for example, is the Kinetic Nova 125, re-branded and sold by M&M.
Correct! But the customer care was their responsibility, was it not? And the bike was badged as K-Bajaj and not as Kawasaki-Bajaj, except perhaps the very early batches. A very vague K and a very bold Bajaj, if you know what I mean!

I know about the pedigree of the Duro! I am asking are Mahindras succeeding in selling them? Is their good brand value in four wheelers rubbing off on the product?

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Old 8th July 2010, 22:23   #203
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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
And the bike was badged as K-Bajaj and not as Kawasaki-Bajaj, except perhaps the very early batches.
All products under the Kawasaki Bajaj JV had KB in their name, where 'K' was meant to signify Kawasaki. Bajaj was more into scooters those days. The bike you were referring to had more of 'K' in it. Just for the record.

Quote:
I am asking are Mahindras succeeding in selling them? Is their good brand value in four wheelers rubbing off on the product?
Mahindra or not, the Nova or any Kinetic scoot for that matter was/is not that much of a seller. Especially after the advent of Activas and the like.
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Old 9th July 2010, 04:05   #204
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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
There are only a few companies which operate over a wide product range and still succeed in cars / bikes as well. They are exceptions. The Korean chaebols went that way, lost the plot and failed. Remember Hyundai electronics and Samsung Motors? IIRC Yamaha tried to become a car maker and fielded a car with their own engine in F1 some years back. It was still born.

Basically I am not a fan of copycat companies/products. When they announce such a cheap, me too car, it is but natural that people will think of a spruced up auto with four wheels and not of the Pulsar! Mind you, I am talking of only first impressions here, and I don't deny they can change after seeing the product. But it will be a miracle if that happens, IMO.

I once bought a lemon called KB 100 RTZ from Bajaj many moons ago. More than the product proving to be a lemon, what was galling was the way they
turned up their nose at my complaints. I vowed to neither buy a Bajaj product ever again nor allow anyone I know to buy one, if I could help it. And have since then changed the minds of at least a dozen relatives / friends who were contemplating a Bajaj product and pointed them elsewhere! I know it sounds childish, but what else can one do against a mighty corporation? I don't deny things could be totally different with them after so many years, but my view of them will always be through that prism!

Even otherwise, I personally will not buy a car from BAL, any more than I will buy a bike from Ford or a fridge from Honda!
Bajaj car may fail or suceed. I don't know. I am not trying to hold the flag for them here. I would approach their product with a open mind and not have any pre-conceived notions. Just bcoz some company in korea failed does not mean Bajaj will fail. Even you agree your experience was some moons ago. And they have come a long way since then. None of their bikes are copy products. Even the car they showcased initially was not a copy cat product. I do not see any logic in what you are saying here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
As for apples to oranges comparison, not really. Both are automotive companies, and both think their success in one product line can be replicated in the other! Do you feel Mahindra is succeeding? I don't think so.
Bajaj products are based on in-house R&D. Mahinndra's still don't make their own engines(just one example). It's just been few months mahindra's bought kinetic and you are branding them a failure. Wait for mahindra to launch some products and give them some time. Then make a desicion. Now is it not a apples to oranges comparo.

Would you care to explain why you called bajaj a copy cat company?

Last edited by airbender : 9th July 2010 at 04:07.
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Old 9th July 2010, 05:29   #205
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I think if the stigma of the Bajaj brand rubs on their car, it will only be for the better. Today Bajaj rules the roost in the 125cc plus segment and that too as an independent bike maker. The best Japanese bike-car or car-bike makers came and tried but are no where near Bajaj. The only other manufacturer to be ahead in the volume game is HH, primarily due to their 100cc commuter bikes.
Their exports are now showing a much faster growth rate than their domestic sales. Not to forget the upcoming bike they have in association with KTM in whom they have a major stake.
Ive owned a first gen. Pulsar for 3 years and was a stellar bike and is still a part of the family.



Coming back to the point, I think the Renault association was unnecessary for Bajaj, they have the financial, engineering and marketing poweress to pull this off themselves.
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Old 9th July 2010, 06:45   #206
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Coming back to the point, I think the Renault association was unnecessary for Bajaj, they have the financial, engineering and marketing poweress to pull this off themselves.
I'll disagree with this point. Making a car is not a joke. Their engineering prowess lies in churning out three wheeled monstrosities that they sell for massive profits. Even those weren't designed by them (I guess they were from Piaggio).

Historically car manufacturer's have taken a long time to start making respectable cars. What makes you think that Bajaj would have bucked the trend?
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Old 9th July 2010, 14:32   #207
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Their latest gen. three wheelers have been designed by themselves, albeit not exactly a technological tour de force, they are among the best in what they do. But I accept the fact that bajaj have juiced these autos for far too long.

As it is Bajaj has come out saying that they are not recieveing any technical or financial help from Renault. Considering that the French are ready to sell the cars for them, they must have understood that Bajaj knows what they are doing.

Now comes to the sales and marketing part, Bajaj doesnt need Renaults help in India, the primary market, they are not very good either e.g. the Logan debacle.

When it comes to exports although no Renault, Bajaj has build up its own network of dealers in S.E.Asia, MidEast, Africa, S.America etc... exporting more than 100 thousand bikes a month (114,024 in June)
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Old 9th July 2010, 17:38   #208
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In fact if there was too be a joint undertaking of designing this small car,the responsibilty should have been opposite.Renault designing the major part of the car using cheaper indian resources whereas Bajaj should have been responsible for the maketing & distribution,thanks to its large customer base,brand value,knowlegde of the indian consumer needs and distribution network.
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Old 9th July 2010, 17:39   #209
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As it is Bajaj has come out saying that they are not recieveing any technical or financial help from Renault.
I wasn't aware of this. I had assumed that Renault must have technical and financial inputs. Interesting.
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Now comes to the sales and marketing part, Bajaj doesnt need Renaults help in India, the primary market, they are not very good either e.g. the Logan debacle.
When it comes to exports although no Renault, Bajaj has build up its own network of dealers in S.E.Asia, MidEast, Africa, S.America etc... exporting more than 100 thousand bikes a month (114,024 in June)
Agreed that the Logan debacle doesn't speak highly of Renault (and I am very critical of them too), but car sales and service are a quite different from bikes too. Think about how hard it has been for Tata Motors to get into a groove with this, although they were manufacturing CVs for decades. The point I am trying to make is that Bajaj is actually stronger because of a partner experienced in the automobile industry.
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Old 9th July 2010, 19:43   #210
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This is a bit like the Chinese toy manufacturers who design, manufacture and sell their warez to importers, who then go on to palm them off on unsuspecting parents.

Renault-Nissan, Bajaj sign pact for new car to rival Nano - Reuters -

Speaking of Bajaj ricks, let us be fair to them - they were a bit like Rolls way back then, when the competition was from Scooters India, Vikrant, etc. Even the Kerala govt. had put together a contraption to compete wih them - the Bajaj REs.

And yes, they did innovate - put the engine from below the driver's bottom to under the passengers' arse. And improved the suspension too. All other innovations - CatCon, four stroke, etc., were lobbied away. (being in the transport business back then, I was a keen watcher of policy moves).

Right now, TVS have a far better product, which is selling like hot cakes.
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