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Old 6th March 2008, 11:52   #211
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
Not sure which Cloud you are on now mate but CRV & Captiva at 9 lacs if Customs Duty was abolished?

So essentially, they would sell at prices lower than the City ZX Vtec & the Civic?

Let's stick to logic & reasoning & not get carried away completely, shall we? I for one would be happy to see them come down to even Grand Vitara levels. Is that likely even if duites are abolished? I don't think so.

And where the hell did the Safari suddenly come into the picture I wonder?
What cloud mate? Do you remotely know what customs duties can do a final selling price? Think of Petrol.

After giving it a thought, we can discuss this further.
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Old 6th March 2008, 13:25   #212
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Wishful thinking. The duties will never be abolished, else why would any manufacturer have a local setup?
I know the same. They would never ever be.

But my point is if TATA's and M & M's would have to set up manufacturing base in zero duty or duty free countries where they would not get any type of cover, how would they compete with the likes of Honda's?

Value for money offering near perfection at near perfect price.
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Old 6th March 2008, 14:14   #213
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
Let's stick to logic & reasoning & not get carried away completely, shall we? I for one would be happy to see them come down to even Grand Vitara levels. Is that likely even if duites are abolished? I don't think so.
Let's discuss. It's damn possible.

2008 Honda CR-V - the Official Honda Web Site

$26,700 [COLOR=#0000ff]4WD EX-L[/COLOR]


That's their Top End Model right, which would cost abount 22 lacs in India.
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Old 6th March 2008, 18:16   #214
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Originally Posted by 1-Testosterone View Post
Do you remotely know what customs duties can do a final selling price?
No I don't, you are the only one living in India & purchasing cars here I guess.

Anyway, I'm out of this thread because its a useless, hypothetical discussion that we are heading for here.

And no point quoting the prices of Honda overseas. that's why I asked -
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So essentially, they would sell at prices lower than the City ZX Vtec & the Civic?
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Originally Posted by 1-Testosterone View Post
Let's discuss. It's damn possible.
Its not about whether its theoretically possible, its about whether the companies in question would do it? Till they did, its again purely hypothetical or, as GTO mentioned

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Wishful thinking

Last edited by suman : 6th March 2008 at 18:20.
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Old 6th March 2008, 18:29   #215
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My two bits on the whole customs vs. local manufactured discussion.

In case a car is manufactured locally, it needs to pay excise duties as well as customs duty on the parts imported. Although these are less than the customs duty charged for CBU's, they are a material amount. On top of this are state and local levies like VAT, Octroi etc. This is the reason that ex-showroom prices for cars like the SX4 are lower in the US, despite the fact that they are manufactured locally in India.

For example, if the Honda top end mentioned @USD 27k in the US is assembled in India, its likely to remain above the 15L mark. This is without going into the question of whether the manufacturer would increase its margins or not.

Sorry if this is a little OT.

Last edited by jaibir : 6th March 2008 at 18:31.
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Old 6th March 2008, 21:35   #216
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Suman, I'm not saying CRV will be placed at City level. What I mean to say is with even local taxes combined (ED + VAT) the pricing of CRV would be lower than that of Vitara right now.

Also bear in mind that CRV which is sold currently in USA is being imported all the way from Japan. What my point is Honda knows better the value of money. At unbelievable FOB price it can put a marvel like CRV. This statement looks even more exaggerated when everyone knows that manufacturing costs in Japan are amongst the world's highest.
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Old 7th March 2008, 09:26   #217
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while i was taking delivery of my Optra Magnum tCDI, there was one Captiva with gujrat passing (this was 2 days before captiva was launched) at pashankar auto in pune.

i asked the sales guy for TD, initially he said no, but then he managed to give me TD. Captiva i drove was 160 bhp and not the 150 bhp which is now officially sold in India. the one i TD was export model....

later i took the TD of 150 bhp, and there is huge difference, though only +10 bhp
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Old 7th March 2008, 11:17   #218
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Originally Posted by 1-Testosterone View Post
But my point is if TATA's and M & M's would have to set up manufacturing base in zero duty or duty free countries where they would not get any type of cover, how would they compete with the likes of Honda's?
Do you honestly think they can't do it? Consider this.....its easy to exercise cost controls in mid-range to high-end cars (anything over 7 - 8 lakh rupees). The challenge lies in controling costs in the 3 - 5 lakh price band, control enough to make a venture profitable.

Tata is giving the Japs a run for their money with the Indica. And most of its direct competitors are free from import duties due to the near 100% localisation level.

If Tata can compete in the fierce 3 - 5 lakh segment, I am confident that they can in segments above too. Mind you, I haven't named Mahindra in here since they havent (yet) displayed the mega strides in automotive manufacturing, that Tata has already accomplished.

So Tata can compete on price, even without duty advantages. As of today, there is concern over the level of quality. Yes, I will be the first to admit (as an Indigo owner) that Tata ranks at the bottom of the charts in terms of sheer quality. But then, so did Hyundai at one time. Give them a little time. Do you know that Toyota once entirely withdrew from the American automotive market due to an unreliable product?
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Old 7th March 2008, 12:47   #219
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If for 1 year, those duties (in tune of 120% of CIF value) are abolished, we would be driving these CRV's and Captivas for a mere 8-9 lacs. So in my book, Safari (given just everything...) is overpriced for its price.

What makes you think that if the duties were abolished, then the CRV and the Captiva will be available at 9 Ls. The cars that are manufactured in India also have to pay a lot of taxes and duties which are not low by any means. If these cars were manufactured in India, all those taxes and duties will be applied to the price of 9L or something that you are talking about. So, the final price would end up being significantly greater than that of the Safari, and significantly greater than 9L. Probably will end up being around the GV.
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Old 7th March 2008, 14:20   #220
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What makes you think that if the duties were abolished, then the CRV and the Captiva will be available at 9 Ls.
Where did I mention they would be available at 9 L?

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The cars that are manufactured in India also have to pay a lot of taxes and duties which are not low by any means. If these cars were manufactured in India, all those taxes and duties will be applied to the price of 9L or something that you are talking about. So, the final price would end up being significantly greater than that of the Safari, and significantly greater than 9L. Probably will end up being around the GV.
Bingo.

Realize after Excise Duty and VAT (2 of the major taxes), even if CRV is priced anyway near around/below GV, I bet most of the people will buy CRV rather than Safari (Top End Model) which is priced at 11 L. The whole discussion started from discussing VFM.

Somebody said in this thread that fully loaded cativa is not at all VFM at 20 L. I responded that if it weren't for CBU and hefty CD + CVD + SAD, these high end versions would be available at a price which would redife VFM concept.
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Old 7th March 2008, 14:29   #221
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Do you honestly think they can't do it? Consider this.....its easy to exercise cost controls in mid-range to high-end cars (anything over 7 - 8 lakh rupees). The challenge lies in controling costs in the 3 - 5 lakh price band, control enough to make a venture profitable.

Tata is giving the Japs a run for their money with the Indica. And most of its direct competitors are free from import duties due to the near 100% localisation level.

If Tata can compete in the fierce 3 - 5 lakh segment, I am confident that they can in segments above too. Mind you, I haven't named Mahindra in here since they havent (yet) displayed the mega strides in automotive manufacturing, that Tata has already accomplished.

So Tata can compete on price, even without duty advantages. As of today, there is concern over the level of quality. Yes, I will be the first to admit (as an Indigo owner) that Tata ranks at the bottom of the charts in terms of sheer quality. But then, so did Hyundai at one time. Give them a little time. Do you know that Toyota once entirely withdrew from the American automotive market due to an unreliable product?
Agreed. Japs are all about sheer quality and they never compromise. I would agree TATA can give Japs a run for their money but only when you take out quality and refinement out of the equation; otherwise not

I have nothing against TATA but quality and refinement is not their forte, seriously. They can knock their competitors off when it comes to VFM equation but overall they have lots of things to be right up there. I'm Indian so ultimately I will feel proud of them but my mind thinks otherwise.

Everytime they put a new model, they have chance to upgrade the overall quality of their vehicle in terms of refinement and interiors but they they leave it untouched even when it comes to their top end model (Safari) which they are selling at 11.5 L.
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Old 7th March 2008, 18:07   #222
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In the US, we have a new GM vehicle called Saturn Vue that is based on the Captiva platform. One complaint is that its extremely overweight by like 400 lbs compared to similar sized competition and it has blunted FE and performance.
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Old 7th March 2008, 20:19   #223
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can anybody post a pic of the captiva

you guys might find hard believing it but i havent spotted a single one yet
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Old 7th March 2008, 21:07   #224
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Old 8th March 2008, 00:20   #225
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thanks gor the pictures testosterone
but i meant pictures of captiva on indian roads
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