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Old 27th January 2008, 23:02   #16
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Let me start with Fiat.
The present 1.3 diesel in the swift is on of the engines that won one award in the European Engine Of The Year awards.
Now as we all know that Fiat was in financial trouble so it sold its great diesel tech to GM. GM was in pact with Suzuki. So Suzuki could access this great engine. Yes Suzuki did pay a lot of price for manufacturing this engine in INdia.

The next generation of Fiat engines namely "Multiair" wont be sold by Fiat.

But it was the financial crisis that complled Fiat to make this move. And then Fiat and Suzuki thought that they can share a thing or two. CAme is the SX4 or Fiat Sedeci. Both of them are very very successful models in both the petrol and diesel trims. Diesel is of course by Fiat.

And its good for us Indians that we are getting the great diesel in the great chasis of Swift.


Now its Peugeot:
AS per that time, 309 was not taht outdated. And 309 had one thing that was really good than ite then competetiors, namely Esteem and Cielo, and that thing was rear ride quality, rear seat comfort.
But the best thing in that package was handling. Even with 165 section tyres, 309 could teach todays City or Aveo a thing or two especailly in twisty roads. 309 was a huge success in Africa and a reasonable success in Japan. Yes it was car for underdeveloped countries, but that effort was good considering Esteem of that time and Cielo.
And if 309 was great as compared to its competetiors of that time, then the Logan is not a great effort, or rather it is bad effort as compared to present competetion of Logan.


I personally respect 309 for what it had to offer. And the diesel version was simply excellent for that time. And those who say that today our market is not underdeveloped, then they should observe the roads on which they are driving their "developed" cars. And may be even the quality of fuel they are putting in. And the speeds they are doing on average roads. So we are not developed and the rate of accidents suggest that we are one of the most underdeveloped.

Its not the car may or may not be dangerous, but the driver is most dangerous part of any automobile.
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Old 27th January 2008, 23:02   #17
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I dont think palio was ever a failure. 2002/2003 saw palio climb higher & higher in the sales charts. But now when the car is really outdated, they want to plonk the mjd, should have been done at least 2/3 years earlier.

regarding the Peugeot & renault cars, there is a team-bhpian who has just migrated from the Peugeot to the Logan.
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Old 27th January 2008, 23:03   #18
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Originally Posted by tushky View Post
Fiat India
well Fiat india website shows Bravo and 500.. did they launch these cars??
They have been showing it since quite a while now. Its not yet launched though, will be launched in some time, will be a CBU, will cost the earth, will be........!
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Old 28th January 2008, 00:03   #19
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Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
Buddy, Palio was launched in 2001, and now it is 2008!
And now Fiat is in full steam!
FIAT was in a better position in 2001 than 2008!

Full steam in 2008? They are struggling to sell 300 cars a month, have 'outrageous' spare parts prices ('Stile'), and the famous build quality of the older palio is missing is newer ones too (although its still better than most competition).

Yes, Grand Punto and Linea are very capable cars. Palio was a beauty too, but seeing what FIAT has made out of it, i think its better to wait and see how the product is received.
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Originally Posted by gemithomas View Post
You will get an answer on whether it was FIAT who needs to learn things or if it is "we" who need to learn things. I'll just give you a small example. WOuld you think you could get a car with all the below features at 5.65 lakhs.
Adventure was HUGE VFM. But, its not because FIAT wanted to teach us things. Adenture was launched in desperation, to increase the falling sales of FIAT cars in India. That explains the low price.

Palio Adventure was launched in June 2005. At the time of launch, FIAT had a production capacity of over a lakh cars. Their previous months sales were just 200- 300 units (Total), had to write off around 1300 crores of debt, and didn't have many models to launch.

I dont see any reason they could ask a premium price for the Adventure. Also, FIAT themselves had announced adventure production would be ramped up to meet demand. Demand never went up, so did the pricing.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 28th January 2008 at 00:06.
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Old 28th January 2008, 00:14   #20
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I have drawn quite some flak for my views on Fiat's and French performance in India. Please note that nowhere I said these cars are bad. There is a '02 Uno diesel in the family and it still runs pretty well. Palio too, I said, is a good car. So is even Logan notwithstanding the looks. Never drove Peugeot 309 though, so I cannot comment.

1.3 MJD may be a joint effort by GM, Fiat and Suzuki but who is the major contributor / developer? I am sure it must be Fiat. Why else is it called Fiat 1.3MJD engine? And I'm sure Suzuki had probably made least contributions but walked away with the engine. Ok so Fiat just had to give it to Suzuki. Ok but couldn't Fiat have fit the same engine in Palio, too besides giving it to Maruti. Now Fiat is planning to do just that. Isn't it a case of too little too late? I'm not a Fiat fan but I feel bad that Swift D is getting all the undue credit, rave reviews, long wiating lists et al because of an engine which I would call a Fiat's baby. All this glory could have gone to Fiat if only they had plonked it in Palio.
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Old 28th January 2008, 01:20   #21
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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Full steam in 2008? They are struggling to sell 300 cars a month, have 'outrageous' spare parts prices ('Stile'), and the famous build quality of the older palio is missing is newer ones too (although its still better than most competition).
I mean Fiat is going beyond Palio with their slew of launches this year!

How outrageous are Stile spare prices? More than BMW, Merc?
Agree it is bit espensive owing to some of its imported parts but please don't exaggerate!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Yes, Grand Punto and Linea are very capable cars. Palio was a beauty too, but seeing what FIAT has made out of it, i think its better to wait and see how the product is received.
Why are you waiting for market response? If you feel the Car is good, buy it rather than following the crowd and ending-up with a substandard car at the same price!
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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Adventure was HUGE VFM. But, its not because FIAT wanted to teach us things. Adenture was launched in desperation, to increase the falling sales of FIAT cars in India.
Now that qualifies to be Joke of the year! No comments!
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Old 28th January 2008, 01:36   #22
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Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
How outrageous are Stile spare prices? More than BMW, Merc? Agree it is bit espensive owing to some of its imported parts but please don't exaggerate!
Why do we need to compare Palio with a Merc?

As i have mentioned in another thread (ACI Survey), Palio Stile bonnet costs way more than what Skoda charges for its most expensive Superb. (and we know Skoda is expensive)

ACI survey showed Palio Stile having 2-3 times the cost compared to competition. Imported parts? As i have asked in the other thread, to you itself (which you didnt reply), are body panels also imported to justify this price? (Which fellow bhp-ians with Stile have also paid)

I'm saying with these facts in mind. If you think I'm exaggerrating, please prove it, and i'll be more than willing to change my views.
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Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
Now that qualifies to be Joke of the year! No comments!
The reasons for the statement was also mentioned below. If you still felt it as a 'joke of the year', you could kindly mention the reason too.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 28th January 2008 at 01:40.
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Old 28th January 2008, 08:20   #23
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hey! lets not get to the old stuff. I still would just say that a FIAT is a FIAT, a Peugeot is a Peugeot, a Hyundai is a Hyundai and a whatever is a whatever!! Its just because of that that all these brands are still in the market.

Back to the topic. Its just that these people did not know the mindset of the majority. They believed that quality would surely sell. I suggest who ever is doubtfull of that tries to get his hands on a 2002 FIAT Palio and a 2002 some other vehicle and compare what your naked eyes can see. I'm sure you would know the difference.

In the meanwhile. Adventure was lauched as a niche vehicle. One of the first of its kind in india. It was not supposed to be sold in millions. The adventure sport was a cost cut variant with obviously indian made components. And that truely shows.
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Old 28th January 2008, 08:30   #24
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Then the Himalayan blunder that Fiat committed is that they gave their stunning, pathbreaking, award-winning 1.3 multi jet diesel engine to Muruti to power their Swift rather than keeping this engine for themselves for Palio.
Or would you let Fiat be totally hemorrhaged by GM by now. Fiat did a very brave thing by taking the payoff and going on its own with a focussed approach. The royalty from this engine helped things on further
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Old 28th January 2008, 09:44   #25
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1. To me, FIAT failed due to their management (mis) in India rather than their technology and abilities.. How many of us have seen FIAT advertising their cars on the most populer media called TV since its launch?? If FIAT management (mis) was hoping that its customers will do mouth publicity, I would call their management as utter non sense.. It could be because of finances but then you could nto gain if you dont take the pain.. No pain No gain..

2. The only technical fault in Palio when it was launched was "odometer". They kept the same odo as their brazil model and so even if the car covered more distance the odo was showing less which gaev a sense of much less mileage.. The most sensitive part of Indian auto industry...

3. Their dealer network was never outstanding.. I guess the dealers were not getting good margins out of a car deal.. The dealer network was spread across metros or big cities... So they themselves shrunk their market opportunities..

4. Spare parts could have been costlier when Palio was launched.. But then the competition with which its spare part costs was compared is nothing to write about.. I own Palio 2005 NV 1.2 Sport and my car's spares are cheaper than Swift but then the new Stile still has spares costlier than few other hatches.. They should localize if they have a big plant like RJ..

I wish FIAT will make a huge comeback like Ganguly did in cricket.. In fact they should appoint Ganguly as brand ambassador ..

Last but not the least.... I LOVE MY PALIO AND I LOVE FIAT....
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Old 28th January 2008, 10:07   #26
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In the beginning of 2004 Fiat did not have a dealership in Kolkata. Had contacted Fiat India, as I was planning on Adventure,they asked me to wait as a dealership was coming up within one month. That status remained from March 2004 till August 2004. The dealer propreitor was pissed off too with the delay. In August he announced that the Adventure is not going to be available and I have to make do with Petra. I was obviously very unhappy with the happenings. The dealer himself, in front of my dad (dealer was his old acquaintance), told me, why are you hell bent on buying a Fiat, the cars are good as you can see your old car running so fine till now. But the company is so confusing that he would not recomend buying this.

Now, all this points to, is that Fiat India management was clueless about everything they did. The cars were not designed in India, if they did that, I wonder what those cars would have been like.

Could be a result of being associated with PAL, which itself being clueless, gave a completely wrong marketing picture about Indian scenario. Fiat seemingly could not unlearn all the wrong lessons learnt at PAL. PAL was also responsible for us not seeing more of Peugeots. The 309 was a "testing the waters" launch for Peugeots, had it clicked we would have seen more of them. In Africa Peugeots rule. There was no reason they should have failed in our country. 309 was dated, but then, was it not robust, did it have FE problems. Spares were sky high, but those would have rationalised if PAL was serious. Moral of the story, hang PAL, but they are already dead, just another sore point that we cannot hang them for ourselves.

Lets hope they can learn car selling from tata and teach car making to them in return.

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Old 28th January 2008, 10:49   #27
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I think Blue pulsar is right. It has a lot to do with the trusst factor. I really wanted to buy the palio 1.6 , but was too scared of buying a FIAT product as I feared they may leave me high and dry two years down the line.
Even I was scared to purchase a Palio. But whoever scared me was not owning/never driven a Fiat. Then I joined PUG and taken their feedback on the car. I trusted the guys and I was confident that I can manage service guys if they are not doing good job. I know how to get things done and very well aware escalation procedures. I did the same while purchasing the car itself. It has been three years, I could say I am happy with the car. No maintenance except General Servicing in regular intervals.

But one thing is clear, if car start giving problem you would be in problems. It is not that the service guys are receptive, the service guys never agree that it is a problem and if they agree they may not be in a position to solve the problem. In simple, service guys are not qualified or well equipped to solve the problems in the car. I am not aware of the situation places other than Hyderabad. I can assure you that this is the case here.

-BSR
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Old 28th January 2008, 11:02   #28
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Moral of the story, hang PAL, but they are already dead, just another sore point that we cannot hang them for ourselves.
PAL is not dead yet!

Premier Sigma is being sold in small numbers. Can find a few of them, relatively new, here in kerala.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ill-alive.html (Premier Automobiles -- Is it still alive??)
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Old 28th January 2008, 11:06   #29
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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post

The Fiat and the French. When will they learn?
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I think you are being too critical of Fiat here.
Are you kidding? No one can ever be too critical of Fiat India. Heck, the only thing they could have sold well in the last 10 years is a book titled "What NOT to do in the Indian car industry".

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Then lets take a look at the palio. Who were its competitors if you take its price range? How many cars at that point of time had such good build qauality and ride comfort. How many cars handled bad roads with such ease. How many cars gave you things like fabric inserts on seats, hard covers for inner boot, under body plastic coating to avoid rust, side stone gaurds (do we get it on any car below 15L today??).

Then they launched a limited edition palio. Man that was the real limited edition car. All those limited editions we get now are just marketing gimmicks but the S10 was surely a real limited edition!! HAd indians heard of Airbags before that?
I would never say that Fiat India had a product problem; at the time of launch, the Palio was undoubtedly amongst the most superior hatchbacks. But to bungle such a good product up, you really have to be doing something wrong! Fiat could not have cared any less about the customer, and has paid a heavy price for its lackadaisical attitude. They lost out on a golden opportunity to succeed within one of the fastest growing automotive industries of the world.
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Old 28th January 2008, 11:55   #30
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I mean Fiat is going beyond Palio with their slew of launches this year!

How outrageous are Stile spare prices? More than BMW, Merc?
Agree it is bit espensive owing to some of its imported parts but please don't exaggerate!
How can you even compare the Palio's parts to the Merc's, Beemers? Now this is really very silly. Compare apples to apples. Compare the spares of the Palio with Swift, Indicab, Getz and you will know what cRaZy rIdEr meant.
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