Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 6th February 2008, 11:48   #76
BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 356
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemithomas View Post
Not even the SX4 if you really look at it. Common man. There are some things that are called Quality, Fit & Finish, Aesthetics etc. To me the most overpriced would be the Swift Diesel and the least would be the Wagon R
Could you be specific please. What is wrong with Swift's quality, Fit & Finish, Aesthetics etc ? Atleast I could not find any issue with it.
Ajay_J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2008, 11:57   #77
Senior - BHPian
 
gemithomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Trivandrum
Posts: 2,364
Thanked: 136 Times
Default

FIAT ADVENTURE. FORD FUSION. CHEVY AVEO. FIAT PALIO STILE. HYUNDAI i10. TATA SAFARI. HONDA CIVIC.

Last edited by gemithomas : 6th February 2008 at 12:00.
gemithomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2008, 13:10   #78
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,717
Thanked: 425 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
If GM, Ford, Fiat do this we immediately complain about them giving cheap looking stuff in their cars and charging a premium for it.
Quote:
Because they do charge a premium for it. Maruti does it, yes, And that enables it to give VFM cars.
So if Fiat or GM use common parts across their cars costing 5 lacs to 15lacs would we still say that it's fine if they do this as it enables them to give us VFM cars?

I can take a common steering wheel and switch gear between a 5 lac Swift and 8 lac SX4 but when it's extended to a 14 lac GV then it should raise questions and it would raise questions about 'foreign car makers are ripping us off' but not when Maruti does it and I find that odd and hypocritical. From what I have seen, the Steering wheel, power window and other switches, dash vents are all common between Swift, SX4 and GV. Tomorrow if Fiat gives us common steering wheel and switches between a 6 lac GP, 8 lac Linea and 18 lac Alfa Romeo, would we be as forgiving? Or would we also call the Mondeo VFM if it shared common visible parts with the Fiesta and Fusion?

Quote:
Quote:
Examples of non- Maruti cars providing better things at a lower price ?
Forget non-Maruti cars, IMO, the biggest rip off in the Indian car market today is the M800. Do you honestly believe that the car is VFM at over 2 lacs specially after the Nano was unveiled?

PS: Don't you guys think that VFM is also subjective?
amit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2008, 13:35   #79
Senior - BHPian
 
BUSA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bombay
Posts: 5,130
Thanked: 10 Times
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
I can take a common steering wheel and switch gear between a 5 lac Swift and 8 lac SX4 but when it's extended to a 14 lac GV .....................
If MSIL, HSIL, Skoda, TKM does something its forgiven but dare Tata, Fiat, GM do so. VFM is subjective, questions were not raised about the GV since very few even look at it, since its a petrol SUV.

Here is a pictoral comparission between the interiors of the three, and they look almost the same



BUSA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2008, 13:42   #80
Senior - BHPian
 
DCEite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NCR
Posts: 3,047
Thanked: 479 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
I can take a common steering wheel and switch gear between a 5 lac Swift and 8 lac SX4 but when it's extended to a 14 lac GV then it should raise questions and it would raise questions about 'foreign car makers are ripping us off' but not when Maruti does it and I find that odd and hypocritical. From what I have seen, the Steering wheel, power window and other switches, dash vents are all common between Swift, SX4 and GV.
It helps to keep the costs down, Amit.
Otherwise how would Maruti could have priced Swift/SX4 at current levels? ABS,Airbags,Climate control, 16 inch alloys, at 7 lacs. Did you forget that?
Climate control, ABS, Airbags in a 5 lac Swift. Did Fiat take that kind of initiative ever?
Even today, no other small car <5 L offers climate control!

Its not only Maruti, but other car makers are following the same strategy of parts sharing. Tata does with Indica/Indigo lineup. Even the new Sumo shares its parts with Safari.
What exactly is wrong with sharing parts, as long as somne cost benefit is passed to consumer as well (which Maruti seems to be doing alright)?


And someone was talking about spare part prices.
Even a look at this makes me rub my eyes in disbelief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinaygv View Post
Door glass 657.82
Front Bumper 6277.6
Headlight 6818.89
Foglamp 1569.82

Last edited by DCEite : 6th February 2008 at 14:57.
DCEite is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2008, 13:44   #81
srh
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 339
Thanked: 139 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
Examples of non- Maruti cars providing better things at a lower price ?
The prime example is the Indica Xeta as compared to the Alto, Wagon R, Estilo etc. Other example is obviously the Santro, which today is much better VFM as compared to any of the Maruti products.

I would agree with another statement on the thread that the Swift (petrol and diesel) is the worst VFM amongst all. Poor interior space, old engine/ drivetrain, poor build quality with tacky interiors (compared to its price). Except for styling (which again is subjective), there is nothing going for it.
srh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2008, 14:01   #82
Distinguished - BHPian
 
supremeBaleno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Weekdays@Chennai, Weekends@Kerala
Posts: 5,164
Thanked: 1,638 Times
Default

The way this thread is going, it is high time the thread is renamed as "Suzuki Follies! Japanese Follies !!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemithomas
FIAT ADVENTURE. FORD FUSION. CHEVY AVEO. FIAT PALIO STILE. HYUNDAI i10. TATA SAFARI. HONDA CIVIC.
So these are the gems that provide Quality, Fit and Finish, Aesthetics and all this at a price cheaper than the competition !! Maybe you should ponder a bit closely on each of the attributes you mentioned and then take a re-look.

If at all they really were what you said they are, they should be selling in truckloads (ain't the Indian consumer always on the lookout for VFM?), which fortunately / unfortunately is not the case. Except maybe with the Civic, but we know why it sells and we also know how it is priced w.r.t the competition.

Without naming any from the list specifically, let me just say that it would be ridiculous to speak of quality or fit&finish in the same breath as some of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit
Do you honestly believe that the car is VFM at over 2 lacs specially after the Nano was unveiled? PS: Don't you guys think that VFM is also subjective?
As you rightly mentioned VFM is subjective. Each one of us found VFM in the choices we made and since these choices encompass the entire range of products, it just seems to be something that everyone measures in their own way. There is no common measure to benchmark VFM, IMO. So, maybe for the guy who buys the M800, it must be VFM.
supremeBaleno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2008, 14:04   #83
Senior - BHPian
 
headers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Greater Chennai
Posts: 4,589
Thanked: 454 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
Fiat has always been bungling in India. After Premeir Padmini's success, they went into hybernation. They brought dumb and old looking cars like 118NE and Uno which looked outdated even before they were launched in India. Palio, though a good looker, did not succeed for various reasons. It just didn't have anything outstanding in its favour that other hatches costing less didn't have. Then the Himalayan blunder that Fiat committed is that they gave their stunning, pathbreaking, award-winning 1.3 multi jet diesel engine to Muruti to power their Swift rather than keeping this engine for themselves for Palio. Had Fiat done that, Palio would have been a sales-charts scorcher today. It really beats me about the rationale behind such a move by Fiat. It's like feeding your neghbour's kids and starving your own. So while Palio is on the verge of extinction, Swift is setting sales charts afire thanks to Fiat. Is Fiat really so pea-brained?

The French are not far behind. Long long ago they brought one ugly looking Peugeot 309 to Inidia. Its super failure did not deter Renault from bringing Logan , another ugly looking. So what if it's a lower segment sedan. Indigo looks way better than Logan and costs much less, too. Renault fans argue that they cannot offer a good looking car at a cheaper price. Then why try at all? If you can't offer something good looking in a given segment, then avoid that segment altogether. Renault could have gone the Skoda way, entering D and D+ segment. They have one sedan Laguna which looks way better than anything currently sold in India this side of 30 lakhs. But Logan? Ugh!!! Forget us auto enthusiasts--- even women, children and senior citizens and the like who do not dabble in things automotive, even those types did not like Logan. They all say it looks plain ugly. Couldn't Renault have lauched Megane or something of that sort?

The Fiat and the French. When will they learn?
That was one tough Critical post my friend!!
headers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2008, 14:49   #84
BHPian
 
WhiteKnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 828
Thanked: 73 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
IMO, the biggest rip off in the Indian car market today is the M800. Do you honestly believe that the car is VFM at over 2 lacs specially after the Nano was unveiled?
Isn't it common sense? Maruti offered the cheapest car till now, and that is a good selling proposition. Other car makers could have taken the fight and challenged M800. Even FIAT or Renault could have done that.

Instead of that what is the point in saying Maruti is ripping people? It is often the losers who do the press conferences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
That was one tough Critical post my friend!!
My friend, this is the new Indian attitude. We don't buy garbage anymore. Do I love the Indian cricket team
WhiteKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2008, 14:54   #85
Senior - BHPian
 
finneyp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,619
Thanked: 160 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteKnight View Post
My friend, this is the new Indian attitude. We don't buy garbage anymore.
Does it hold good for a garbage badged with a 'S' ?
finneyp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2008, 15:01   #86
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,717
Thanked: 425 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCEite View Post
It helps to keep the costs down, Amit.
I know and I agree.

Quote:
Otherwise how would Maruti could have priced Swift/SX4 at current levels? ABS,Airbags,Climate control, 16 inch alloys, at 7 lacs. Did you forget that?
No how could I? Thats the reason I bought the SX4 despite it not being 'my kind of car'

Quote:
Climate control, ABS, Airbags in a 5 lac Swift. Did Fiat take that kind of initiative ever?
Not with climate control but they did take the initiative with ABS and Airbags with the Palio 1.6 when it was launched back in 2002. Back then even the 1 million rupee Honda City VTEC didn't offer these features.

Quote:
What exactly is wrong with sharing parts, as long as some cost benefit is passed to consumer as well
There is nothing wrong with that as long as the end user (buyer) doesn't mind. What I don't agree with is when people critise GM, Ford, Fiat, Skoda for using common parts and call Maruti, Honda, Toyota cars VFM if these companies resort to these things. Do take a look at the pictures posted by Busa. The GV and SX4 interiors are so similar! If I was looking to buy a GV, I wouldn't like the interiors of my car to look so similar to a car costing almost half.

If someone finds Swift/SX4 steering wheel and switchgear VFM in a GV then why call a Mondeo or a Alfa Romeo a rip off when they have common parts with Fiesta and Linea?

Last edited by amit : 6th February 2008 at 15:09.
amit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2008, 15:28   #87
Team-BHP Support
 
Eddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 7,402
Thanked: 4,680 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
There is nothing wrong with that as long as the end user (buyer) doesn't mind. What I don't agree with is when people critise GM, Ford, Fiat, Skoda for using common parts and call Maruti, Honda, Toyota cars VFM if these companies resort to these things. Do take a look at the pictures posted by Busa. The GV and SX4 interiors are so similar! If I was looking to buy a GV, I wouldn't like the interiors of my car to look so similar to a car costing almost half.

If someone finds Swift/SX4 steering wheel and switchgear VFM in a GV then why call a Mondeo or a Alfa Romeo a rip off when they have common parts with Fiesta and Linea?
There is nothing wrong with that strategy irrespective of the company. What matters is that those benefits be passed to the customers.
Mondeo and Alfa Romeo are not VFM even though they share common parts and that is the problem.
Eddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2008, 15:33   #88
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,175
Thanked: 128 Times
Default

Common parts is a strategy crucial for cutting costs, consumer prices and increasing profits in the present auto industry, where segments are fragmented, and very few models have the volumes to justify independent platforms.

However, not done properly, it can cause problems and cheapen the brand, as VW has found it by sharing parts with Skoda at the lower end and Audi at the upper.
vasudeva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2008, 16:11   #89
BHPian
 
WhiteKnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 828
Thanked: 73 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
Does it hold good for a garbage badged with a 'S' ?
I don't care the badge. A garbage is a garbage

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
The GV and SX4 interiors are so similar! If I was looking to buy a GV, I wouldn't like the interiors of my car to look so similar to a car costing almost half.
I agree. Wonder where Maruti got this funda suddenly. Till some time back Maruti's part sharing was limited to smaller/unnoticeable parts. M800, Alto, Zen, WagonR, Esteem and Baleno all had their own personalities.
WhiteKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2008, 18:16   #90
Team-BHP Support
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 11,892
Thanked: 9,729 Times
Default

Quote:
They have one sedan Laguna which looks way better than anything currently sold in India this side of 30 lakhs.
but the electrical problems that people suffer from this car in the UK make this a potential dog in India
ajmat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
'05 French Grand Prix Live Screening In Delhi Badcheetah The Team-BHP Meet Section 7 28th July 2005 11:10
French Grand Prix '05 : Predictions and post race comments Dippy Int'l Motorsport 29 6th July 2005 00:51
French Grand Prix... shravan316 Int'l Motorsport 10 6th July 2004 03:37


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 17:08.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks