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Old 14th February 2008, 16:20   #106
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1. Comparing one overpriced car to another makes no sense. Tomorrow based on some common specs, one might compare the Swift with the Fiat Bravo/ Cinquecento and claim that its great VFM.
2. When other car manufacturers' cars have rattles, it reflects poor build quality, but when Maruti cars have rattles, 'EVERY CAR HAS RATTLES'
3. Did I compare the Swift with the Xeta anywhere? I clearly compared it to the Alto etc. It another matter that I can also debate how its better VFM than even the Swift.
4. When I talk about the a car being VFM, I am talking about the features/ specs w.r.t the price. On this parameter, the Swift petrol/ diesel are surely overpriced.
5. ACI might say a lot many things depending upon how many advertisments they get, how many free cars they get for short term/ long term test drives, how much free hospitality is provided. There is no reason to take their word as sacrosanct. I will say things based on my real world experience and not based on what ACI says.
6. I have a M800 and WagonR in my household. So I surely know how these cars age. I see a lot of people talking about the great longevity of Maruti cars (some say 15+ years). But one has to understand that quite a few of these people take out their cars once a month. In 15 years, they might not pile up enough on the odo.

I have my facts right, have had enough work experience in the auto industry and am well equipped technically to discuss most things. don't make it personal
Well said SRH.

People misunderstand VFM for good looks and mileage. It is also about the quality of a product you buy. Maruti vehicles doesnt offer the quality for the price the customer pays. And its hard for people to accept it after spending their lakhs on a car! Infact i was quiet surprised to find a poll thread in TBHP which is about whether your swift rattles or not". This is the first time ever i have come across such a poll!

Whats wrong in calling it overpriced for the inferior quality it offers?
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Old 14th February 2008, 17:29   #107
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Well said SRH.

People misunderstand VFM for good looks and mileage. It is also about the quality of a product you buy. Maruti vehicles doesnt offer the quality for the price the customer pays. And its hard for people to accept it after spending their lakhs on a car! Infact i was quiet surprised to find a poll thread in TBHP which is about whether your swift rattles or not". This is the first time ever i have come across such a poll!

Whats wrong in calling it overpriced for the inferior quality it offers?
But do you think only "rattles" make a car good quality or bad quality? Agreed, rattles is one of the weaknesses. But it is the Maruti tag(read A.S.S/Service Network/Peace of mind), good looks, good price, good engine, good F.E, good resale that sells Swift/SX4/Any maruti car. Modern Maruti cars might be lightly built than the European cars, but they definitely have a rigid chassis and awesome ability to protect passengers(safe cabin). Also, if something goes wrong, there is atleast someone to hear to your complaints and fix them. This is not entirely true with the other brands.

Also, problems with Maruti cars are magnified because they sell in huge numbers. E.g if Maruti sells 1000 cars X, there could be max of 1000 problems, whereas, if brand Y sells 100 units of car Z, we will hear maximum of 100 problems.

Last edited by blue_pulsar : 14th February 2008 at 17:31.
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Old 14th February 2008, 18:39   #108
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A very nice reading article... Dictates a good leadership can do wonders..
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Old 14th February 2008, 18:48   #109
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Dictates a good leadership can do wonders..
When will Fiat India get a good leader? Hope sooner than later....!
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Old 14th February 2008, 18:57   #110
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When will Fiat India get a good leader? Hope sooner than later....!

I hope the newly appointed Hero Honda guy would do good to FIAT India..
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Old 14th February 2008, 19:06   #111
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I hope the newly appointed Hero Honda guy would do good to FIAT India..
Yes, hope Rajiv Kapoor can turnaround Fiat's fortunes in India!
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Old 15th February 2008, 00:35   #112
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Maruti vehicles doesnt offer the quality for the price the customer pays. And its hard for people to accept it after spending their lakhs on a car!
How many Swift owners in this forum are not satisfied with their cars?

Most of them agree it has rattling problems. However, most of them are really satisfied with their purchase too. This is because it makes up on several other fronts!

The car sells 7000+ units a month and not without due reason.
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Old 15th February 2008, 02:07   #113
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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
How many Swift owners in this forum are not satisfied with their cars?

Most of them agree it has rattling problems. However, most of them are really satisfied with their purchase too. This is because it makes up on several other fronts!

The car sells 7000+ units a month and not without due reason.
Satisfaction and VFM are two very different things. Satisfaction is subjective and VFM can be objective. VFM as per my definition would be the cost you pay in relation to the benefit you derive from a product. And when I say benefit, I am not really talking about things like peace of mind, pleasure etc. as these are again subjective attributes.
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Old 15th February 2008, 11:03   #114
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Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
But do you think only "rattles" make a car good quality or bad quality? Agreed, rattles is one of the weaknesses.
Rattles is the outcome of poor build quality!

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
But it is the Maruti tag(read A.S.S/Service Network/Peace of mind), good looks, good price, good engine, good F.E, good resale that sells Swift/SX4/Any maruti car. Modern Maruti cars might be lightly built than the European cars, but they definitely have a rigid chassis and awesome ability to protect passengers(safe cabin).
Awesome ability to protect passengers...? Really! How do you come to conclusions dear friend! Is an Omni/800/Estilo/Alto/Esteem safe? What is crash test ratings for these cars? Have you got any data? Well lets talk about the Swift/SX4.

Swift has 4 Stars for Adult safety, 3 Stars for Child, 3 Stars for Pedestrain (Data from Euro Ncap) Euro NCAP - For safer cars | Suzuki Swift (Same results for SX4 as well!)

For a note my friend this NCAP rating is for the Suzuki Swift Chassis which is built for the UK/Europe. Imagine the safety features with the inferior quality of materials used my Maruti! You should see the Swift being sold in UK to beleive my words

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Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
Also, if something goes wrong, there is atleast someone to hear to your complaints and fix them. This is not entirely true with the other brands.
May be true. But i doubt it for the Swift/SX4. Had an incident in my friend's swift and we had to tow it all the way to Maruti dealer for around 70 Kms.

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Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
Also, problems with Maruti cars are magnified because they sell in huge numbers. E.g if Maruti sells 1000 cars X, there could be max of 1000 problems, whereas, if brand Y sells 100 units of car Z, we will hear maximum of 100 problems.
You must read the quality statement of Chevrolet India. You will understand what quality means in Auto Industry! The maths you worked out here is a joke!
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Old 15th February 2008, 22:39   #115
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Rattles is the outcome of poor build quality!
There are shortcomings of every car. Please understand. No need to highlight one weak point and bash a few cars. Instead see what points make up for it. Read the new team-bhp reviews. I'm sure you will get many positive points for most Maruti cars.


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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Awesome ability to protect passengers...? Really! How do you come to conclusions dear friend! Is an Omni/800/Estilo/Alto/Esteem safe? What is crash test ratings for these cars? Have you got any data? Well lets talk about the Swift/SX4.
I said the newer cars from Maruti. Please read my post. SX4 and Swift are the cheapest cars in their segments to provide Airbags, ABS. This is what I meant by awesome ability to protect passengers. Just because the body sheet metal is thinner does not mean that they are not safe. Safety means the strength of crumple zones and the safety features.
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
Swift has 4 Stars for Adult safety, 3 Stars for Child, 3 Stars for Pedestrain (Data from Euro Ncap) Euro NCAP - For safer cars | Suzuki Swift (Same results for SX4 as well!)
For a note my friend this NCAP rating is for the Suzuki Swift Chassis which is built for the UK/Europe. Imagine the safety features with the inferior quality of materials used my Maruti! You should see the Swift being sold in UK to beleive my words
Please don't compare the foreign version against the one in India. This is true with most cars.
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Originally Posted by anachronix View Post
May be true. But i doubt it for the Swift/SX4. Had an incident in my friend's swift and we had to tow it all the way to Maruti dealer for around 70 Kms.
Maruti offers breakdown service. Am not sure whether you are aware of this. They will come to the place of the breakdown on one call. And good service is good service. It is not like it applies to 800 and Alto only and not to Swift and SX4.
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You must read the quality statement of Chevrolet India. You will understand what quality means in Auto Industry! The maths you worked out here is a joke!
I know what quality is. This is not the first time in my life I'm seeing cars. I don't say that Maruti cars offer highest quality. But they are of the highest quality for what you pay. Now thats VFM. Please try to understand my point. If you cannot understand Math, I'm sorry, I cannot help you. As I told you earlier, every car has its share of problems. No car is perfect.

Please let us not drag this any further. Unless we agree on a point, a discussion simply is a waste of time.
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Old 15th February 2008, 23:26   #116
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Last year in june i'd gone to the FIAT showroom but the TATA guy was dry about it and cajoled me into taking the indica/indigo and offered a 40K discount too....

I believe FIAT should get into big time hard selling.
-Their FIAT 1100 ad was good but they never followed it up with a new one to capitalize on the attention they got and make a mark.
-get a 1.3 version for the palio & get some line up of cars here instead of just one.
-Use the tie up with TATA to improve service & change opinion about service and establish them self, but then they should sever from tata as tata selling their cars to probable FIAT buyers..
..At the least!
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Old 15th February 2008, 23:29   #117
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Originally Posted by rao_battula View Post
Here are my observations with Fiat from my association with them for 3 years.

They know their problems well but I strongly believe that they could not find a root cause (may be multiple) for the same. This problem can not be addressed by a solution at one layer. For example, they thought that the A.S.S can be improved by JV with TATA. But problems seem to be more.
Here are my findings/observations. The mistakes they have been doing in all the departments:

Sales :
1. Fiat India/Dealers believe that the car talks the show. Customers should come for the car, we are not going to advertise. No Ads in print and electronic media.

Service:

1. The car can not have problems. --> If you report any problem, no one listens to the customer. After all, it was made by human beings, there is a good scope of errors and faulty pieces due to human errors at least.
2. Service advisors feel that they know about the car better than the customer. They never listen to your problem. The standard answer is: This is how it works.
3. Every thing is automatic. If ECU does not show up the problem. There is no problem with the car. After all it boils down to mechanical things and it can have problems....
4. Spares were costlier, were reduced and costlier now.

Marketing:

1. Fiat never done any research with their customers, critics and service guys to know the problems and rectifying the problem. This is, WE NEVER DO ANY THING WRONG attitude.
2. They never studied Indian customers to make cars that suit Indian middle class man. They dumped the cars that were made in Italy and Brazil.
3. Fiat feels, It is customers luck to have Fiat Cars.

Strong Base for future:

1. Never tried to improve A.S.S
2. No training provided to service mechanics.
3. Red tapism in processing parts orders.
4. Does not have zeal to become No.1. ( I do not know whether they learned any thing Michael Schumacher and Ferrari )
5. Neglected Customer needs


-BSR

PS: purely my opinion, no offense meant to any one.

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Old 15th February 2008, 23:48   #118
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But they are of the highest quality for what you pay. Now thats VFM.
I just cannot digest this!

You pay around 4.5 lacs for a Swift (P), and what you get is rattles all over the body!
Is this highest quality???

I know you are loyal to Maruti, but pls don't say that Maruti makes perfect cars & other Car makers are fools! Pls try to appreciate other Car brands too!
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Old 16th February 2008, 00:01   #119
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I just cannot digest this!

You pay around 4.5 lacs for a Swift (P), and what you get is rattles all over the body!
Is this highest quality???

I know you are loyal to Maruti, but pls don't say that Maruti makes perfect cars & other Car makers are fools! Pls try to appreciate other Car brands too!
No dude, not at all. I never believe that Maruti makes perfect cars. As I told in my earlier post, no car is perfect(At least small cars in India). And am not bashing any other car here. All cars have their positive and negative points. If positives far outweigh the negatives, it is a good car. Agreed? Thats what I want to say. Simply bashing any car just by highlighting its negative points doesn't make sense, right? I only am telling people to look at the brighter side of Maruti too.

I also appriciate other brands. Infact nowadays all brands make good cars which are reliable.

And regarding Swift P for 4.5 lacs, I believe it is one of the better cars if your budget is 4.5 lacs.

Last edited by blue_pulsar : 16th February 2008 at 00:06.
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Old 16th February 2008, 00:08   #120
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Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
All cars have their positive and negative points. If positives far outweigh the negatives, it is a good car. Agreed? Thats what I want to say. Simply bashing any car just by highlighting its negative points doesn't make sense, right? I only am telling people to look at the brighter side of Maruti too.
Fully agree! Thatz what I say about Palio too, instead of cursing Fiat for Service etc, look at the Car and appreciate its features & VFM it offers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
And regarding Swift P for 4.5 lacs, I believe it is one of the better cars if your budget is 4.5 lacs.
It depends, for me I would stretch a bit more and buy a Palio 1.6 Sports!

Last edited by finneyp : 16th February 2008 at 00:11.
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