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Old 11th February 2010, 12:54   #151
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Hope you get it right this time.

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Originally Posted by DieselFan View Post


4. Your point on additional 10% on car loan is double counting dude. You can't have 80 K earn two interests can you . If you can't make this out please think again or ask someone to explain you the math.

Hope you have hear of the concept on "Notional Loss"..talk abt math.

5. If one earns 75K more while selling the car then there is some much more advantageous to buy a diesel because you negate the extra money spent initially and also save on additional running expenses.
You dont EARN a Re. more, you just recover a part of the premium you paid for the D and its not 75k for sure. So here we have an additional loss on capital erosion.


Please go a try searching for a diesel Swift in the market and you will get /buy my point. unless you do some research on used car market you would not be able to appreciate this point.

I dont understand on what basis have concluded that i have no idea abt the used car market and that i need to to research. I dont wanna spend time explaining to you that the D is not different or worst interms of resale. I guess you will come of lala land only when you try to sell your car.
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Old 11th February 2010, 12:57   #152
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Not claiming to be a math/finance wizard, but here is my simple calculation:

1. Ex-showroom for BLR as per maruti website price taken
2. Fuel price for BLR taken as quoted by Dieselfan
3. FE/Total Distance /yr taken as quoted by Dieselfan
4. Service cost yearwise not readily avlbl hence only taken what is quoted by Dieselfan (4K diff per 20K, hence for 75K total appx 16K diff in service cost)
5. As per Dieselfan resale value diff will be 60K at the end of 2yrs..assuming it will be the same post 5 yrs.
6. Interest of purchase - actually not interest

At the end of 5 yrs I would have spend appx 90K more on Petrol version.

But wait..now consider this:
1. The initital difference during point of purchase = 80K
2. I can easily double that amount even by the most conservative estimates in 5 Yrs..going by this alone I would still pocket about 60-70K more by running a petrol version
3. It can be argued that the appx 20K saved each yr on diesel can also be invested every year - true, but the returns will be much less compared to lumpsum investment of 80K for 5 yrs. Adjusted against inflation, this would be substantially more.
4. In case of loans, the increased emi/interest outgo on diesel needs to be considered, which may negate the fuel cost savings depending on distance covered.
5. This is all assuming that diesel prices will continue to be subsidized more than petrol. If the price differential between the 2 are reduced (more and more likely), the savings on fuel also will reduce for diesel vehicles.
6. God forbid, if within couple of years you are txfrd from city a to b where per year distance covered is reduced significantly, the difference will be substantial.

Okay, now I ready for the flaws to be pointed out, if any..please keep it coming.

For now, until I start a taxi/tour operation, I will stick to petrol.
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Last edited by sanjayc : 11th February 2010 at 13:01.
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Old 11th February 2010, 13:03   #153
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Guys,

I have been very intrestingly reading all the comments & appreciate some of the calculations done. However as per me

1. Let us not consider the resale point as we dont know what our resale would be as it depends on lot of things.
2. On the other hand let us also not forget there are people like me who buy diesel due to their running.
81000 kms in 3 years for a Scorpio.
11000 kms in 6 months for a Grande Punto.

Now if i compare such running then it certainly makes a point to buy diesel & I can average a lot faster & then save on money year after year.
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Old 11th February 2010, 13:09   #154
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100,000 kms is the BEP for smaller cars and 80,000 for larger cars like civc etc.
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Old 11th February 2010, 13:28   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjayc View Post
For now, until I start a taxi/tour operation, I will stick to petrol.
Good one!!! But ya what i am trying to say is that the K block on the swift vxi might still be a better choice even if you start a taxi service...lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamtheLeo View Post
Guys,

I have been very intrestingly reading all the comments & appreciate some of the calculations done. However as per me

1. Let us not consider the resale point as we dont know what our resale would be as it depends on lot of things.
2. On the other hand let us also not forget there are people like me who buy diesel due to their running.
81000 kms in 3 years for a Scorpio.
11000 kms in 6 months for a Grande Punto.

Now if i compare such running then it certainly makes a point to buy diesel & I can average a lot faster & then save on money year after year.
Agree with all your points. But the grey area comes in for people like us who dont have as much running as you have, say 15-18K kms pa.
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Old 11th February 2010, 13:41   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSM-Vtec View Post
Hope you get it right this time.
KSM - There can't be two notional loses - One in share market and another on loan. I can't see how you don't get this point. Anyways you can always take a horse to a pond but can't make it drink. there is no point in convincing you on diesel cars. Hence I rest my case.
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Old 11th February 2010, 13:44   #157
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@Sanjayc - You are calculations and reasoning are right. You have taken an average of 15k kms per year which translates to 1250km per month. I would says its fairly low running and diesel will not do justification there.

If one were to do in excess of 20k kms every year, then the Diesel advantage would be clearly evident. Our Fiesta D has clocked ~10k in 4months and will hit 22 - 25k in 12months time and a Lakh in 4yrs. We find a huge advantage in Diesel here over the Petrol.

Psychological advantages I see are every time we visit the Petrol pump to refuel, we dont feel the pinch as much petrol counterpart would feel. The initial outgo of 80k is dwarfed when Diesel puts a smile on your face when refilling the tank or when one doesnt think twice about long trips. Also, whenever the price hikes happen, Diesel guys dont complain much while the Petrol guys go around the town cribbing.

Last edited by rajivn : 11th February 2010 at 13:46.
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Old 11th February 2010, 13:54   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjayc View Post
1. The initital difference during point of purchase = 80K
2. I can easily double that amount even by the most conservative estimates in 5 Yrs..going by this alone I would still pocket about 60-70K more by running a petrol version
Somewhat true! Assuming a loan at an interest rate of 10%, you would be paying an additional interest rate of Rs. 8000 p.a. which can be adjusted on saving by diesel. Assuming an 800 Km run per month, a diesels saving over petrol (after adjusting the maintenance cost and interest on finance) will be about 12K per annum (refer http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post1727306 (The financial Truth: Petrol vs Diesel)). It will take about 6 to 7 years to break even. But that is the maximum period. In most cases, 3 years would be ideal.

Another fact is that if petrol engines are turbo charged, they will cost same or more than a diesel one and the equation will be completely opposite, though it is unlikely to happen in small cars.

Last edited by opendro : 11th February 2010 at 13:56.
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Old 11th February 2010, 14:40   #159
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Ok now that we have unwanted/irrelevant issues out of the way lets get back to the point -

PLEASE NOTE - I am referring only to the scenario put forward earlier with a Max 10% variation in driving conditions etc.

I agree(and am not concerned) that the D will be a better buy for people who drive more than 20k kms a yr. The reliability/quality of an Indian D hatch over 1l kms/7yrs is a question (in some conditions) but thats OT right now and lets keep it out.

But then, to my mind the only question that remains is, will the K block on the new Swift vxi perform as well as expected(FE/Output etc)?? If yes then P or else D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselFan View Post
KSM - There can't be two notional loses - One in share market and another on loan. I can't see how you don't get this point. Anyways you can always take a horse to a pond but can't make it drink. there is no point in convincing you on diesel cars. Hence I rest my case.
Did i say both are notional ??
Obviously 1 is an actual loss and the other is notional. Anyways forget it.

Last edited by KSM-Vtec : 11th February 2010 at 14:43.
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Old 11th February 2010, 14:45   #160
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Rajiv,

The 15K/yr I have taken as per Dieselfan calculation (am lazy you know).

Quote:
If one were to do in excess of 20k kms every year, then the Diesel advantage would be clearly evident. Our Fiesta D has clocked ~10k in 4months and will hit 22 - 25k in 12months time and a Lakh in 4yrs. We find a huge advantage in Diesel here over the Petrol.
True, that's why I say at the end, until I start a....!

If I have to seriously drive 50-60kms everyday for work, I will seek either a change in employment or move closer to work or consider alternate mode of travel..OR, add a driver's salary so that my commute time is productive.

In this entire debate, one thing is not open to speculation, and that is the price differential at the point of purchase of the car. The money has gone out of your pocket already. Rest everything is a variable and depends upon circumstances(change in fuel pricing structure, inflation, our commuting habits etc, if you want to add more, ok Mideast war, US decline, change in engine technology..want some more?). To which I say, if circumstances change, I will change according to them, and hence I will be full control of what I can do or can afford to do. With 80K in my pocket, I will have the freedom to dictate terms rather than just gobble up kms to justify the initial outgo.
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Old 11th February 2010, 14:50   #161
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I have completed 53K Kms on my Indica for last 22 months, decided upon Indica , the other choice was Wagon-R Duo. Tank full for around Rs 1200/- bring smiles back. And also with the tax slab expected for the diesel vehicles should give me better resale value when I want sell it.
It is true that with diesel vehicle we tend to drive more.
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Old 11th February 2010, 15:00   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opendro View Post
Somewhat true!..
Exactly..I will repeat once again what I said earlier..A-bird-in-hand-is worth-two-in-the-bush

Keeping commercial vehicles aside, if I am getting a vehicle purely for personal/family use, for gaining diesel advantage, you must clock considerable miles and keep it sustained over a long period:

So, if Diesel fans can guarantee the foll. that over a period of 3+years,

1. 15-20K kms will be covered annually. For that they must maintain top physical health, becos if they fall sick, less driving means price advantage drops like a hot potato..it is another matter that more Vitamin M will go to keep oneself in top shape, so that is another cost to consider;-}

2. Model will not be discontinued, affecting resale value

3. per litre price difference will remain steady as exists today

4. War/Catastophes will not break out

5. Hybrid/Alternative fuel tech will not become cheaper

6. Companies do not allow work from home

7. Less commutation is required becos of change in work pattern

8. Etc, Etc, Etc.

Since I do not have a crystal ball to gaze into, I will prefer to save 80K now, that pontificate over saving 2 Lakhs in the next 5 years.
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Old 11th February 2010, 15:05   #163
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If the monthly running is close to 2k kms or above, a diesel option makes sense. I drive 50 kms for work and am driving for past 6 years. Diesel is the option for me.

For those with monthly running around 1000 kms, petrol makes sense. The 80k in hand now logic works here. Between 1000-2000 kms/per months, its more of personal preference .
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Old 11th February 2010, 15:17   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srinivasmhn View Post
Tank full for around Rs 1200/- bring smiles back. And also with the tax slab expected for the diesel vehicles should give me better resale value when I want sell it.
It is true that with diesel vehicle we tend to drive more.
Exactly. A common man or a usual commuter will not feel the need to buy a diesel car. But for a person like me who likes to drive, probably the only thing that would hold me back would be the huge fuel bill. With a diesel machine in the porch, that is no more a deterrent. So diesel cars do tend to run more. My previous petrol car ran only 40K kms in 3 years, but the new diesel one has already done 10K in four months. And the thing is, the total fuel bill for the new car would be just over 20K INR.
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Old 11th February 2010, 15:17   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjayc View Post
2. Model will not be discontinued, affecting resale value

3. per litre price difference will remain steady as exists today
We can't comment about the other points, but these two can't be ignored. I don't see how they can keep the price differential going for too long - the price of diesel can't be cross subsidized by petrol indefenitely. Either there will be a one time levy on Diesel cars or a dual price mechanism for Diesel sooner or later. Take away the price advantage of diesel fuel, and you take away the prime advantage of diesel cars.

Even if models are not discontinued, I feel the higher resale value of diesel cars has more to do with the higher initial price than anything else.
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