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Old 10th February 2010, 11:00   #121
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Originally Posted by DieselFan View Post
KSM-Vtec - How did you come up with the break even calculation of 7 years. Can you elaborate? Typically if you drive on an average 40 kms a day the breakeven comes to around 2 years or 30000 kms. You should take into consideration the resale value of Diesel car is much higher than that of petrol variant.
I may be wrong in my FE numbers but i am sure that i am not way off

Well the price difference in mumbai between the K block VXI with ABS and the VDI with ABS is 80k.

Assumptions -

1. 50:50 highway and city driving with 100% AC

2. FE Number

VDI
City - 15
Highway - 20
Avg FE - 17.5

VXI K Block (worst case scenario)
City - 14
Highway - 18
Avg FE - 16

3. Difference in cost of petrol and diesel INR 10 approx

Therefore Avg cost per km -
VXI - INR 3.2/km
VDI - INR 2.3/km

4. Average running 15k kms p.a.

5. Have assumed the maintenance cost of both the cars to be almost the same - THIS IS WHERE I NEED CLARITY FROM THE VDI OWNERS

Going by the above assumptions you will arrive at a breakeven running of 1L kms and @ 15k kms pa it will take 7 yrs to do it.

Even at 20K kms pa it will take 5 yrs and at 25k kms pa it will still take 4 yrs.

Now i dont think it makes a lot of sense looking at the difference in resale of the 2 cars for the following reasons -

1. 7 yrs is a very long time span to take a call on resale
2. Time value of the extra 80k spent on the vdi - money doubles in 8.5 yrs even in an FD, 6.5 yrs in NSC Schemes(hope that alone takes care of the resale bit)

The difference in your calc and mine is mainly due to the K Block VXI and its FE.
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Old 10th February 2010, 12:51   #122
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Kaushik,

Here is the calculations from my side which is more practical -

Swift Diesel mileage - 18 City, 22 highway = 20 average (This is what most VDI owners are now getting). But worst case scenario let us take it as 19. If you run Swift D like a petrol car(Run with care to optimise kmpl then people have got 26 kmpl too)

Swift Petrol Mileage - 12 city, 15 highway = 13.5 average as per data in our forum. check out this thread -
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...iency-136.html (What is your Actual Fuel Efficiency?)
Let us say the new engine gives 15 kmpl again this is just a guess and no concrete evidence on the same.

Rs. per km in Diesel = 37/19 = 1.95Rs.
Rs per km in petrol = 52/15 = 3.45 Rs.
Bangalore prices of Diesel and petrol considered.

additional maintenance cost of Diesel over petrol = Rs. 4000 in 20000 kms (primarily due to filter costs) = 0.2Rs per kms.

Total benefit per km because of Diesel = 3.45-1.95-0.2 = 1.3Rs.

Difference in price of new diesel car over petrol = Rs. 80000.
difference in resale value after 2 years of Diesel over petrol = Rs. 60000.
additional interest for diesel car over petrol car on the loan over 2 years = 20000
total price difference = Rs. 40000
breakeven point = 40000/1.3 = 31000 kms.

each year after year 2 the Swift D will save 20000 Rs if the mileage is 15K kms per year.

The important point that you are not considering here is the resale premium Swift D will carry over swift P which on a conservative scale is about Rs. 60000. A person in this forum has sold his Swift Diesel that has run for 2,00,000 kms for 3.55Lacs. It is a fact that Swift P Depreciates much faster than Swift D over 5 year or 1L kms period.

Last edited by DieselFan : 10th February 2010 at 12:59.
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Old 10th February 2010, 14:04   #123
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Good explanation, DieselFan. But to you and KSM-Vtec, you don't calculate the average mileage like that. Average mileage is calculated by considering the city and highway runs into consideration as well.

For instance, one's running is x:y between city and highway and FE are c Kmpl and h Kmpl, the average FE is (x + y)/ ( x/c + y/h).

Assuming a ratio of 50:50 running, and 14 and 18 Kmpl for city and highway respectively, average FE is 100 / (50/14 + 50/18) = 15.75 Kmpl, not 16 Kmpl as you might think.

How it arrives:
Assume total distance is 28 Km for convenience, 14 Km in city and 14 Km in highway.
Now, you consume 1 litre in city and 14/18 = 0.778 litre in highway. Average FE is now 28 Km perl 1.778 litres or 15.75 Kmpl. Hope that helps.

BTW, for the same driving habits, the mileages of diesel cars is far more than a petrol one.

Last edited by opendro : 10th February 2010 at 14:12. Reason: Made the formula more generic.
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Old 10th February 2010, 14:35   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opendro View Post
Good explanation, DieselFan. But to you and KSM-Vtec, you don't calculate the average mileage like that. Average mileage is calculated by considering the city and highway runs into consideration as well.

For instance, one's running is x:y between city and highway and FE are c Kmpl and h Kmpl, the average FE is (x + y)/ ( x/c + y/h).

Assuming a ratio of 50:50 running, and 14 and 18 Kmpl for city and highway respectively, average FE is 100 / (50/14 + 50/18) = 15.75 Kmpl, not 16 Kmpl as you might think.

How it arrives:
Assume total distance is 28 Km for convenience, 14 Km in city and 14 Km in highway.
Now, you consume 1 litre in city and 14/18 = 0.778 litre in highway. Average FE is now 28 Km perl 1.778 litres or 15.75 Kmpl. Hope that helps.

BTW, for the same driving habits, the mileages of diesel cars is far more than a petrol one.

Completely agree with you...had done the approx method to explain quickly, as the small difference will not change the buying discision. Similarly i have only considered an average difference in fuel cost of INR 10.

I know petrol in blr cost 51 and not 52, but that again will not change my decision in any way.

And for all you know if differential pricing of diesel comes in it will not make any sense buying a vdi.
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Old 10th February 2010, 15:40   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselFan View Post
Kaushik,

Here is the calculations from my side which is more practical -

Swift Diesel mileage - 18 City, 22 highway = 20 average (This is what most VDI owners are now getting). But worst case scenario let us take it as 19. If you run Swift D like a petrol car(Run with care to optimise kmpl then people have got 26 kmpl too)

Swift Petrol Mileage - 12 city, 15 highway = 13.5 average as per data in our forum. check out this thread -
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...iency-136.html (What is your Actual Fuel Efficiency?)
Let us say the new engine gives 15 kmpl again this is just a guess and no concrete evidence on the same.

Rs. per km in Diesel = 37/19 = 1.95Rs.
Rs per km in petrol = 52/15 = 3.45 Rs.
Bangalore prices of Diesel and petrol considered.

additional maintenance cost of Diesel over petrol = Rs. 4000 in 20000 kms (primarily due to filter costs) = 0.2Rs per kms.

Total benefit per km because of Diesel = 3.45-1.95-0.2 = 1.3Rs.

Difference in price of new diesel car over petrol = Rs. 80000.
difference in resale value after 2 years of Diesel over petrol = Rs. 60000.
additional interest for diesel car over petrol car on the loan over 2 years = 20000
total price difference = Rs. 40000
breakeven point = 40000/1.3 = 31000 kms.

each year after year 2 the Swift D will save 20000 Rs if the mileage is 15K kms per year.

The important point that you are not considering here is the resale premium Swift D will carry over swift P which on a conservative scale is about Rs. 60000. A person in this forum has sold his Swift Diesel that has run for 2,00,000 kms for 3.55Lacs. It is a fact that Swift P Depreciates much faster than Swift D over 5 year or 1L kms period.
PLEASE NOTE - My objective is to decide between P & D and not try any prove anybody wrong. Lets have a healthy discussion.

And ya this question has come up in my mind only coz of the K block. Even i was planning to buy the VDI.

I think you havent got my point or may be i was not clear enough. I am not talking abt the current swift P. What i am talking abt it this http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-launched.html (Swift with the K series engine? Update: Launched.) which comes with the K block from the Ritz and gives much better FE.

We all know that the Ritz is giving a great FE of approx 15kmpl in city with 100% AC. So there is nothing to guess in it. Also please note that both the cars weigh the almost same.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...-ritz-zxi.html (Took Delivery of New Maruti Ritz Zxi)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...tz#post1668958

Now firstly why would i sell my car after 2 years with an average running of 15k kms pa??

Getting a very good resale is a matter of chance i would say. And getting 3.5L for a 2L kms run car is purely a matter of luck. The swift D will get a better resale coz it costs more....simple

And let me highlight again that the extra 80k spent on Swift D would become double in 7yrs even if invested in NSC.

***I really dont think all P cars are run the way you are indicating. And ppl buy D cars for better FE and lower total cost right?

Now lets take a look at the nos with the FE you have suggested for the D and keep the FE nos for P as i have suggested. You will still take approx 70k kms and @ 15k kms it will still take me approx 5yrs to BE, which is the time by which i will sell the car. So at the end of the day i have a no profit no loss situation when i sell the car either ways, am i right???
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Old 10th February 2010, 15:53   #126
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Heard of the IRR concept. Very easy to do in excel. Can do it for daily/monthly/annual/qtly data intervals. For monthly, the IRR is the fig received to the power 12.

With this in mind, consider your incremental costs and benefits of a diesel (say on a monthly basis), consider a resale period, and a resale value. Your IRR is then calculated. Consider all expected costs and be sure to not understate the costs.
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Old 10th February 2010, 16:21   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSM-Vtec View Post
PLEASE NOTE - My objective is to decide between P & D and not try any prove anybody wrong. Lets have a healthy discussion.
Sure KSM even I want a healthy discussion but not at the cost of data being mis-interpreted.

You do not need to sell the car after 2 years but I made a point that 2 years is the breakeven point after which Swift D makes 20000 Rs every year.

resale value - Swift D always depreciates slowly as compared to petrol version. This is known fact. I gave an example of 2L kms driven Swift D to drive this point but believe me Swift D will fetch more than 60000 Rs. over a similar driven swift P (Upto 5 years).

For similar driving habits mileage of Swift D will be far more than Swift P. Difference will be surely more than 4 kmpl.

It would be nice for us Diesel heads if people believe in what you say. There will be less demand for Diesel cars and Diesel .
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Old 10th February 2010, 16:46   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselFan View Post
Sure KSM even I want a healthy discussion but not at the cost of data being mis-interpreted.

It would be nice for us Diesel heads if people believe in what you say. There will be less demand for Diesel cars and Diesel .
Dont think i have mis-interpreted anything. Ya less demand means lower resale my friend basic law of eco.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSM-Vtec View Post
Now lets take a look at the nos with the FE you have suggested for the D and keep the FE nos for P as i have suggested. You will still take approx 70k kms and @ 15k kms it will still take me approx 5yrs to BE, which is the time by which i will sell the car. So at the end of the day i have a no profit no loss situation when i sell the car either ways, am i right???
If the k block on the swift performs as expected then the choice will be simpler. Lets hope for the best.
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Old 10th February 2010, 17:15   #129
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I sold my 2003 Accent CRDi which had 82000 kms in October 2009 for Rs. 3.00 lakhs (without insurance). Guess the petrol car in a similar condition would have fetched around 2.00-2.25 Lakhs. There is clearly a higher resale value which needs to be factored in.

The impact of difference in milage can be seen in the bigger cars. Servicing can be +1000-1500 over the petrol largely due the filters.

I would agree with DieselFan on his calculations.

Lastly your face always lights up when you fuel up as you always end up paying less! Guess if you own a pertrol and diesel, fuelling the petrol is always painful!

Cheers

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Old 10th February 2010, 17:30   #130
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Originally Posted by KPS View Post
I sold my 2003 Accent CRDi which had 82000 kms in October 2009 for Rs. 3.00 lakhs (without insurance). Guess the petrol car in a similar condition would have fetched around 2.00-2.25 Lakhs. There is clearly a higher resale value which needs to be factored in.

The impact of difference in milage can be seen in the bigger cars. Servicing can be +1000-1500 over the petrol largely due the filters.

I would agree with DieselFan on his calculations.

Lastly your face always lights up when you fuel up as you always end up paying less! Guess if you own a pertrol and diesel, fuelling the petrol is always painful!

Cheers

KPS
You said it on your own Petrol car resale approx 2.25 lacs & diesel car gets around 3 lacs difference approx Rs 75 K , but remember how much you paid extra for a diesel version over a petrol I am sure the difference must be around Rs 1 lac. So that extra investment you made came back to you simple maths. So I think getting a better resale value for diesel car is not always true.

I think if the government comes up with the proposed cess/ tax on diesel car than I think the diesels will die naturally.

Last edited by tj123 : 10th February 2010 at 17:31.
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Old 10th February 2010, 17:37   #131
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At the end of the day, a heavy fuel bill in your hand every week/month pinches more than a couple of thousand rupees you pay extra in the EMI. While paying the EMI, that amount goes straight from the salary, and the person plans everything with rest of the money, and now the fuel bill goes from this left over money which pinches a lot when you pay 4500 bucks for petrol compared to 2500 for diesel.
To me frankly, monthly expenditure (EMI + fuel + maintenance) is more important than total cost difference over a period of 5-6 years. Anyway my car is going to be with me for 5-6 years at least, and during this lifetime I'm sure diesel is cheaper than petrol for the amount of driving I do. And moreover comparing with using the extra money in some fund doesn't make sense, these are totally contrast things not to be compared.
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Old 10th February 2010, 18:50   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tj123 View Post
You said it on your own Petrol car resale approx 2.25 lacs & diesel car gets around 3 lacs difference approx Rs 75 K , but remember how much you paid extra for a diesel version over a petrol I am sure the difference must be around Rs 1 lac. So that extra investment you made came back to you simple maths. So I think getting a better resale value for diesel car is not always true.

I think if the government comes up with the proposed cess/ tax on diesel car than I think the diesels will die naturally.

+1 on both the points. The extra tax thingy is but all i am trying to workout is if the D cars are really cheaper if you intend to drive them @ abt 15k kms a yr.
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Old 10th February 2010, 19:18   #133
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Originally Posted by KSM-Vtec View Post
5. Have assumed the maintenance cost of both the cars to be almost the same - THIS IS WHERE I NEED CLARITY FROM THE VDI OWNERS
I can help you with this Both P and D have done 40k kms. Cost of maintenance so far has been very similar. In D filters add up another 1000 bucks over the P at 20k intervals. Apart from that NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever!

On the other hand D still runs on original brake pads while those of P was replaced at 35k kms.

EDIT: Rough calculation in city if you drive around 12k kms annually you save 29000/year and 3000 kms of highway another 5800 bucks. This is from just the fuel cost.

Last edited by Jaggu : 10th February 2010 at 19:27.
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Old 10th February 2010, 19:28   #134
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Guys, let me share with you my enjoyment and suffering of owning a diesel car and a petrol car. Over 12 years now I have owned 5 petrol (Maruti, Honda) and 2 diesel cars (Tata). Apart from ownership I had good luck of driving few of the best automobiles in nation of auto nirvana (in Germany I had Porsche, BMW, Audi, Volvo, VW and Mercs leased as company cars). I reiterate that I have not driven the modern day diesels except for Verna and Qualis for a short stint.

If I compare my Indian cars, bought Indica and Safari at the same time (May 2002), I can not think how I would have not had Safari in diesel (would have been bankrupt with Petrol SUV). Also diesel has more low end torque necessary for an SUV to behave like one, getting stuck in mud and you can not think of revving up to 4000 rpm to get out of one puddle to another. However, the maintenance costs that I paid was atrocious. I sold it as whatever I saved in fuel costs I used to pay it to the TASS. I sold the vehicle at a very good price as 4x4 was the new rage and I cashed out with some nice ICE that I threw in as bait. Nothing that I lost there. While we shifted to Gurgaon from Delhi the distance increased from mere 5km to 45km one way to my college and thus we kept on hanging with Indica. I was happy customer for almost 2 years as I saved much more than I could have on a petrol. Then I got a consulting job and moved away from home, as I have mentioned earlier, we had 50k in 2 years and then for past 5.5 years Indica has done just 30k. The car that was saving bulk initially was burning hole in the pocket without the mileage.

How you may ask, for starters Indica's resale is a dud, it looses money so quickly that you can not digest selling it for first 3 years. After all you fall in love with the clatter that it makes Then the only takers are the taxi operators. It is only Swift D that has changed the perspective for Diesels.

Now Indica has lower mileage than the Honda as per yoy comparison. Why, just because maintenance is low, Indica is for domestic help to do the school run for kids and everyday run to the super market.

So there is no difference in buying the car, I have not lost anything but have not even gained by using a Diesel car. I also tried CNG infact my car was the third CNG car in Delhi. But I had no fun waiting in lines with Auto guys to get the gas charged result rarely used the CNG option. If people want to save money they should look at CNG option, its even cheaper to Diesel.

Now coming to Petrols, I have had the most enjoyable time with free revving petrols Porsches's boxer to NA inline BMWs and V8 Mercs, the best diesel that I found was from Audi's. You need to drive the car to believe the tremendous pull. But it also meant that you had less RPM range to play and for cruising it was best.

@Dieselfan: Dear I also bought a diesel car with the assumption I was going to do 5k a month and I did it initially but once you do less than 1000 clicks per month petrol makes much more sense. I pay close to 1500 bucks for CityZX Vtec and get a handsome average of 15kmpl in 50:50 drive Delhi:Gurgaon and I can beat the hell of my economy while I revv hard and breath down the neck of my elder bro's superb and bmw on highway.

Happy driving, just enjoy miles with smiles.
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Old 10th February 2010, 19:45   #135
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Both P and D have done 40k kms. Cost of maintenance so far has been very similar. In D filters add up another 1000 bucks over the P at 20k intervals. Apart from that NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever!
What is the interval for change of spark plugs in the Petrol Swift?

Though it is not a correct comparison,

Marina TDi - 29/10/05 - 175401.77 - 37616.59 - 66240 - 13.92kpl - 44km /day
City CVT - 27/09/07 - 161916.69 - 24612.00 - 45349 - 13.32kpl - 53km /day
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