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Old 12th February 2008, 11:24   #1
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Default the truth about-swift ddis,palio mjd-engines

mods please shift this thread to appropriate section.
there is a popular belief running arround the automotive circles that fiat is supplying engines to msil for the swift diesels.
the truth is -gm,fiat,and msil have obtained rights from bosch to manufacture and sell the engine in question.
swift ddis engine is never a fiat engine
fiat mjd engine wont be manufactured by msil
gm in all its capacity would be making them on their own
there would be capacity hike and small changes regarding this platform for different manufacturers

ram
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Old 12th February 2008, 11:27   #2
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Well Bosch or Delphi manufacture the common rail, pumps for all such engines. Don't the car manufacturers have their own design inputs and custom solutions for engines ?
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Old 12th February 2008, 11:29   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram_hyundai View Post
there is a popular belief running arround the automotive circles that fiat is supplying engines to msil for the swift diesels.
The popular belief was, fiat designed this engine...
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Old 12th February 2008, 11:34   #4
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wonder if tata will be making them on their own as well, since they are pretty cozy with fiat these days
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Old 12th February 2008, 11:35   #5
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Multijet was designed along with Bosch, GM-FIAT alliance. Suzuki were never involved in the design. Since, GM had around 19% shares of Suzuki, that's how the Suzuki got the license for Multijet engine.
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Old 12th February 2008, 11:57   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahadev_kc View Post
Multijet was designed along with Bosch, GM-FIAT alliance. Suzuki were never involved in the design. Since, GM had around 19% shares of Suzuki, that's how the Suzuki got the license for Multijet engine.
Yes. Thats what i also have heard.
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Old 12th February 2008, 12:00   #7
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Whatever said and done, ultimately, the customers are getting the benefit of the technology. Thanks to them.
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Old 12th February 2008, 12:30   #8
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There are a couple of things to note:
1) Indirect injection of fuel
2) Direct injection of fuel
3) Direct, multiple injection

#1 is the old, conventional diesel technology that was very common on cars.
#2 is also old, but it was mainly found in trucks, buses, generators etc. It is more efficient than #1, but suffers from greater levels of noise and less refinement. That is why #1 though less efficient, found fancy in cars.

It was Fiat that first drove the development of # 3 -Direct multiple Injection technology, with Bosch playing the role of supplier. There are several key pieces of this technology, the main ones being the multi-injection sequence of the fuel, with the other being the high pressure delivery of the fuel via a common-rail or pump-duse (VW tech). The multi-injection aspect of it was one of the keys for the greater refinement now observed in the new diesels. This aspect was pioneered by Fiat.

Since this pioneering development in the late 80s and early 90s, the technology challenge has now moved on towards increasing the delivery pressure. Here, the suppliers such as Bosch and Delphi have taken leading roles. Increasing delivery pressure in conjunction with turbo charging and intercooling (for denser O2 supply) allows for more efficient burning of the fuel (the burn center occurs deeper in the center of the cylinder as a result of the higher push pressure) which leads to more power and reduced emissions. The current state of the art is 2000 psi, for which the German autos like VW/Audi and perhaps BMW and Mercedes also have with Bosch. I suspect the Fiat Diesel use the older 1300 psi injection system. The multi-jet engines being manufactured in India are under licence from Fiat, not Bosch. Bosch is just a supplier of the common-rail component only.
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Old 12th February 2008, 13:01   #9
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Hey goacom,
Thanks for the explanation. Its a detailed one and if this is the exact truth, hats off to Fiat for coming up with this technology.
Regards,
Kaustubh
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Old 12th February 2008, 13:07   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram_hyundai View Post
mods please shift this thread to appropriate section.
there is a popular belief running arround the automotive circles that fiat is supplying engines to msil for the swift diesels.
the truth is -gm,fiat,and msil have obtained rights from bosch to manufacture and sell the engine in question.
swift ddis engine is never a fiat engine
fiat mjd engine wont be manufactured by msil
gm in all its capacity would be making them on their own
there would be capacity hike and small changes regarding this platform for different manufacturers

ram
Your information is only partly correct. True, Fiat isn't supplying engines to MSIL. However, their manufacture by MSIL is under license from Fiat. Check this:

GLOBAL SUZUKI

Also note that MSIL advertises the fact that the engine won "International Engine of the Year Award" in Europe which, as everyone knows, was the Fiat 1.3 engine. Check this:

Maruti Swift - The Technology

Please provide some authoritative source in support of what you say.

Last edited by directinjection : 12th February 2008 at 13:18.
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Old 12th February 2008, 13:14   #11
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The Fiat Multijet/JTD engines are from Fiat-GM Powertrain (now defunct, except in Poland i think). Both GM and Fiat have shared ownership of the engine. I think Fiat Powertrain still has the liberty to build newer variants for its exclusive use, as mentioned in this press release:
"The engine will be sold to both captive and non-captive customers, with the higher power output reserved to FGA applications."
Source:
http://www.fptpowertrain.com/eng/pdf/Comunicato_uk.pdf
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Old 12th February 2008, 13:19   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
Your information is only partly correct. True, Fiat isn't supplying engines to MSIL. However, their manufacture by MSIL is under license from Fiat. Check this:

GLOBAL SUZUKI

Please provide some authoritative source in support of what you say.
Not just Fiat... Fiat and GM!
This is mentioned in the web page you have linked to:
Product License Agreement with FIAT AUTO S.p.A (Italy) and Adam Opel AG (Germany) to obtain Technology...
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Old 12th February 2008, 13:36   #13
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AFAIK, GM were never at the development stage, it was wholly Fiat, GM bought a stake in Fiat through which they got hold of the technology. It was very recently that Fiat got back its stake held by GM due to GMs goodwill with which Fiat is still surviving, else it would have been another Daewoo. Have just made a BIG story short.
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Old 12th February 2008, 13:50   #14
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Suzuki was not involved in the development stage. They got it through GM. Suzuki seems to have no internal capabilities on developing diesels. That said, they've done a brilliant job of adapting the Multijets into their global flagship cars (Swift and SX4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by grvanand View Post
AFAIK, GM were never at the development stage, it was wholly Fiat, GM bought a stake in Fiat through which they got hold of the technology. It was very recently that Fiat got back its stake held by GM due to GMs goodwill with which Fiat is still surviving, else it would have been another Daewoo.
OT
As far as I remember, GM was desparate to get out and had to pay Fiat to be allowed to leave. Fiat has a five year option to sell themselved to GM. GM paid $2 billion to be allowed to exit that agreement. They realised they lose enough money on their own without adding Fiat's losses to their woes

Last edited by jaibir : 12th February 2008 at 13:52.
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Old 12th February 2008, 13:51   #15
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Whatever one thinks about Fiat, credit should be given where its due. The technology was developed by Fiat Research. It doesn't matter who owns the technology in whatever way.
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