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Old 6th June 2009, 18:47   #226
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@ the above post. The engines that Toyota builds for the its vehicles which are basically work horses and the Isuzu tech engines Do their duty very well.
If you need an engine to race then go for a Cayenne or a Q7 Or an X5 or X6.. Oh wait whats the problem with that? they all are in the price range of 50+ lacs,You can get the lc200 for that money or even the prado diesel which is not a bad alternative.
what do you need an suv to go at 200kmph for?
+ how can you compare a 10 lac muv or a 20 lac suv with a performance oriented suv(no one's using them for drags you know).

Last edited by vinaydas : 6th June 2009 at 18:50.
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Old 6th June 2009, 19:11   #227
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@ the above post. The engines that Toyota builds for the its vehicles which are basically work horses and the Isuzu tech engines Do their duty very well.
Correct, and the reason why Toyota took share in Isuzu is because of diesel motors only. Their first effort is appreciated in the form of V8 diesel. Although that V8 diesel is two 2.2 united, Isuzu have had their hand a bit and it shows.

Its not matter of what much speed one can do, its matter of comfort. If at 140kmph+ the car is not responding well, then IMO, its not a good sign for a Rs. 15 lakh+ car. Take case of Hyundai Verna CRDi. The little car has so much grunt. Hyundai has proven that diesel tech are not that expensive. And here we are talking about car that will cost almost twice as much as Verna.

Modern diesel will not only give better FE, it will come with lower emessions also.
Off late, Toyota's engines are getting behind competetion. They are of course catching up in Europe, but in US and India, they are not able to offer good engines.
Rather than 2.7vvti, why dont they plonk in their 3.5 V6 with around 270 horses. Detune it a bit, but we still have a proper SUV that can fight sedans. A better diesel, lets say 3.0 with around 210 horses will again give the sedans in that price range some real tough competiton.

Even Ford is providing diesel engine that has got better toruqe from 3.0 motor. And it shows in Endy's quick in gear acceleration. Fortuner is a large vehicle, and for a vehicle of this proportions, good punch is necessary. Its always a nice feeling to have more horses under the hood, and we can call them when we need.

Rs. 10+ is itself called entry level luxury. Rs. 17-20 lakh SUV then obviously falls in luxury segment. Here I did love to see luxury of having an engine that has more than sufficient power to let the car cruise effortlessly at 140-150kmph. Else, its skimping on engine IMHO.
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Old 6th June 2009, 21:15   #228
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Dude... They plonk in a v6 with 270 you can dream on..if expecting it to be priced@20 lacs.More like 30+.. and already people expecting this to be priced slightly above the innova which is highly impossible.
if its a v6 and 270 horses you want.. you need to go shell out around 50 lacs and get a prado.
Dont compare a Verna with an suv.Agreed the chevy power plant is a cracker which is shared by the captiva too.I dont see that engine doing so well with that turbo lagg and all.Well my point is that at that price of appox 20 lacs you cannot expect performance Atleast from an SUV(well unless its a sofroader like CRV).As mentioned in my earlier post get a cayyene if performance suv's is what you are looking for.
As for now the Fortuner is a healty alternative to the endy,Captiva,Crv,Tucson etc etc

Last edited by vinaydas : 6th June 2009 at 21:17.
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Old 6th June 2009, 21:28   #229
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Dude... They plonk in a v6 with 270 you can dream on..if expecting it to be priced@20 lacs.More like 30+.. and already people expecting this to be priced slightly above the innova which is highly impossible.
if its a v6 and 270 horses you want.. you need to go shell out around 50 lacs and get a prado.
Dont compare a Verna with an suv.Agreed the chevy power plant is a cracker which is shared by the captiva too.I dont see that engine doing so well with that turbo lagg and all.
My point is that if one is spending Rs. 20 lakh, then why cant we have more powerful motors ? This is purely luxury segment, so why cant we expect more and better ? I think we deserve a better, more powerful motor in this car if its going to cost Rs. 20 lakh.

About the point of bringing in Verna, of course I was not comparing it with Fortuner. What I was trying to achieve using example of Verna is that, if the good technology is available relatively lower end, with a luxury price tag, why they cant give better motors ?

Also considering that underpinnings are shared with Innova, does it not make sense if they start manufacturing this car here ?

Its massivesly overpriced for what it will offer, as it is true for Endy and Captiva as well as CRV.
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Old 6th June 2009, 23:27   #230
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aaggoswami, I agree with you. At 20 lacs, Toyota should give us lot more than what they're providing.

I also hear that (very recently developed) modern diesel engines from Hyundai redefine diesel tech and put their japanese counterparts to shame.

Also, how do you define "workhorse engine"? Should it mean grossly underpowered?
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Old 7th June 2009, 00:10   #231
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1) aaggoswami, I agree with you. At 20 lacs, Toyota should give us lot more than what they're providing.

2) I also hear that (very recently developed) modern diesel engines from Hyundai redefine diesel tech and put their japanese counterparts to shame.

3) Also, how do you define "workhorse engine"? Should it mean grossly underpowered?
1) Exactly that was my point. This is not a package worth its price. Toyota should seriously consider manufacturing this car in India as it shares platform with Innova.

2) The engines you have heard are probably these : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intern...-r-engine.html (Hyundai Reveals New Diesel R-Engine)

3) Its worldwide well known that Toyota engines rarely give any sort of engine trouble. They run for miles on miles, day and night and still run. In fact for Toyota specifically, its said that then engines can outlive the car and sometimes owners too. But it does not mean that the cars have to be underpowered. Forutner is up against a varied market ranging from SUV like Endy and cars like Accord and its own Camry.
If toyota is not smart enough to arm Fortuner with a good engine, chances are that this car might not click. Those who want SUV will continue to go for Ford ( considering that it will be slightly cheaper ) or will go in for Accord. If Toyota wants to steal some sales away from Accord and Endy, the car has to be good enough.
Just a workhorse motor will not make is good.

Internationally Toyota is not a luxury brand as they are treated here. And in that segment they have created image of workhorse. Here they are targetting luxury market, so obviously the expectations are differnet. Add to that people expect a lot from Toyota. If they fail to impress the buyers, this would affect Toyota's image.

And which CBU from Toyota has clicked well in the market ? My point is :
1) CBU route for Fortuner is itself a drawback.
2) The luxury segment people have different expectations.
3) If they fail to deliver, then Toyota image would be hurt. Till now they have not produced a car that is considered not adequate. Fortuner might be termed as " not adequately powered ".
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Old 7th June 2009, 00:14   #232
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Just want to highlight that Pajero 2.8 is a very underpowered car for it's bulk but I see a lot of them on the roads in Bangalore/Chennai.

If you need 200+ bhp, there are plenty of SUVs in the 40 lakh + budget. Diesel engines are predominantly build for torque so it is more important to look at torque as opposed to bhp. Torque is what provides the lugging power. Bhp is for outright acceleration which SUVs are not made for.

Last edited by 4x4addict : 7th June 2009 at 00:15.
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Old 7th June 2009, 08:58   #233
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Just want to highlight that Pajero 2.8 is a very underpowered car for it's bulk but I see a lot of them on the roads in Bangalore/Chennai.

If you need 200+ bhp, there are plenty of SUVs in the 40 lakh + budget. Diesel engines are predominantly build for torque so it is more important to look at torque as opposed to bhp. Torque is what provides the lugging power. Bhp is for outright acceleration which SUVs are not made for.
1) Pajero 2.8 is a vehicle that is one of the best offroaders. As far as offroading goes, I think people consider it in the league of Landcruiser. So its a vehicle that excels in one deapartment well.

2) Why cant toyota give a reasonable VFM package with 200+ bhp ? They are sure pricing this SUV on the higher end for a car that is based on Innova platform. Its not always about full bore acceleartion, its about comfort and need for power. I am not trying to prove that Fortuner should be faster than laura 1.8, never ever can that happen, but then it must cruise at high speeds comfortably.

3) About torque, I think Endy has an edge with higher torque. So again Fortuner loses. What fortuner has got is excellent space and good driving dynamics coupled with ride quality, but almost similar specs are available with Captiva, which again comes with performance edge over others.

Fortuner is first of all too late to enter Indian market. Then it has formidable and tough competition to beat. Captiva is good package with good performance, Endy has got more torque that will be useful, pajero is better in offroading. So Fortuner looks like a confused lost child. Had it arrived just after Innova, at that time this car would have made an impact. But currently the competition has moved on and its fortuner that is playing catch up.
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Old 7th June 2009, 11:50   #234
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@aaggoswami: are they giving the same engines as in Dubai and Singapore or they are giving us smaller ones. If it is same then buddy, its success in those countries says a totally different story. In any offroad excursions in Dubai blogs, you won't ever see any captiva, endy or for that matter the Indian version of pajero... but always I say always you'll see fortuners..

You are comparing an international model of Toyota with outdated products of other countries.. The videos on youtube says a lot about fortuner and it is not for no reason already the most awaited SUV in India.

Ok, tell me is 100 bhp of Laura equal to 100 BHP of verna.. I think no, there is a huge difference in pickup and torque of both. Same way 140 or 160 BHP of Toyota will be different from 140 or 160 BHP of Captiva or Endy.
I have seen Skoda and Honda always get through well with their stuff in India due to their marketing and placement policies and Toyota has to prove its point. Toyota should always place its products about 15 to 20 K above Honda so that people think that- OH is it better than Honda!!! Its all about what you ask for your stuff that matters in India and not the true quality.
Now your point about a VFM bigger engine -

1) In India most people don't want that, still they want to have better FE from even the most luxurious segment. If Toyota get bigger engine, then Captiva guys will say - Our SUV gives 18kmpl doesnt matter if its 4x2. (Captiva sold no 4x4 for so many years and no one complained, what percentage buys 4x4 in endy or CRV)

2) For true enthusiasts like you and me these companies bring out the higher power models - like in Accord and Superb. V6 4x4 and all, that is a correct policy. But frankly I will not go for them. Even the normal Accord or Superb have enough power for Indian roads and I don't was FE of 6 to 9 kmpl.

Therefore I think what Toyota is doing is correct and they should launch this model fast.. Even if they launch it without roof I will buy it.. lol.. My short experience as a Toyota owner says that probably I will never buy anything other than Toyota for a long time..

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Old 7th June 2009, 14:12   #235
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1)
And which CBU from Toyota has clicked well in the market ? My point is :
1) CBU route for Fortuner is itself a drawback.
I believe there is some misunderstanding here. AFAIK, Fortuner is going to be either CKD/SKD. It is not going to be CBU. Can you please quote sources that indicate that Fortuner is going to be CBU ?

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1) Captiva is good package with good performance, Endy has got more torque that will be useful, pajero is better in offroading. So Fortuner looks like a confused lost child.

Worldwide Toyota's forte is reliability and trouble free ownership experience which none of the above three can match. Captiva ride quality isn't that great plus it doesn't look butch like Endy, Pajero or Fortuner. Endy's ride sucks and Pajero's interiors are outdated plus the fact that Pajero's fortunes in India are linked with that of HM, doesn't inspire much confidence.

I think that Fortuners competition in India is Endy and Pajero and there will be lots of folks who will buy Fortuner because it looks as good (or better) as others and will provide peace of mind (being a Toyota) that other two can't.

I would be nice if Fortuner had more powerful engine but it would do just fine with 3L diesel. It has been competing in other markets with same engine and not doing so badly I guess.
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Old 7th June 2009, 15:17   #236
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By aggo's posts im guessing its not toyota's engines that he finds fault in.. but the indian tax system.
I think that you feel your being ripped off while paying 20+lacs for an suv worth half its price outside.
Well we cant do anything about it.. only option is move to another country
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Old 8th June 2009, 10:19   #237
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Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
By aggo's posts im guessing its not toyota's engines that he finds fault in.. but the indian tax system.
I think that you feel your being ripped off while paying 20+lacs for an suv worth half its price outside.
Well we cant do anything about it.. only option is move to another country
, I understand Vinay, even you had to pay a high price for the new Camry AT, as its a CBU. Cant help, if you want the car in India, you have to pay these ridiculous prices for

1. The manufacturers dont deem this market as big to start manufacturing their products here
2. Taxes being paid to our government.
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Old 8th June 2009, 10:48   #238
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Heard that full fledged production is starting in August and cars would be out in couple of months. Source is reliable.
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Old 8th June 2009, 12:00   #239
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@aaggoswami: Remeber numbers are not everything. I fail to understand how you can call a vehicle underpowered without actually driving it. like ym-enjn said verna's 100bhp is not the same as the laura's.
Also look at the competition and their short comings:
1) CRV: petrol only, strictly 5 seater, soft roader.
2) Outlander: petrol only, strictly 5 seater, soft roader.
3) Grand vitara: petrol only, strictly 5 seater, soft roader.
4) Endy: horrible horrible ride, 3rd row of seats are a joke, Ford A.S.S is not really confidence inspiring, it is much much older than the fortuner.
5)Pajero: It is a million years old, underpowered.
6)Captiva: It is a soft roader and the third row of seats are not as good as the fortuner's

My family has been waiting for the fortuner from the past 4 years. We have researched every SUV in the market and nothing can compare to the innova (IMO). We absolutely love the suspension, comfort and high speed driving dynamics that it offers. Even the third row seats are rally really good.
The fortuner is going to be a better looking innova with more power (probably with better interiors) and everything else remains the same.
For an average indian customer (this includes me too, I am definitely better informed because of team bhp) the fortuner is going to be perfect. Plus you get the bulletproof toyota reliability.
If toyota gives a v6/v8 the mileage will be about 4-5kmpl. Performance enthusiast may buy it but the general public will stay away.
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Old 8th June 2009, 13:04   #240
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Heard that full fledged production is starting in August and cars would be out in couple of months. Source is reliable.

As per company press release (updated here as well) the car is getting launched in Sept 09.
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