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Old 7th June 2010, 15:54   #31
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In India cars are sold
1. Without left ORVM
2. Narrow Tyre for good km/l figures
3. Without crash zone (like Omni)

So, ABS/Airbag what are these?

In India we drive car
1. With both ORVMs folded
2. Pack luggage near the back windshield, so that IRVM are only meant for setting your hair
3. Drive car with T-shirts with diagonal black-strip, so that you are not caught for not wearing your seat belts
4. On top of that, we drive as if we are the king of the road.

So give me a reason why I should figure out what ABS/Airbag is?
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Old 7th June 2010, 16:18   #32
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Originally Posted by Yeldo View Post
At the risk of sounding callous, may I join the discussion by saying that ABS, seat-belts and airbags may not be empirically proved beyond doubt to be key elements of passenger safety? Better driving skills, good roads, vehicles with better body control and steering response, and most of all, TRAFFIC CONDITIONS and your TYRES have more significant roles than ABS, seat- belts and airbags. Just read the user manual of ABS equipped vehicles: they all warn that ABS does not reduce stopping distances. For that, you need more expensive systems like Emergency Brake Assist. Try the braking distance of an ABS equipped vehicle with poor tyres or even poor wheel alignment.

Seat belts are useful in most occasions, but sometimes do harm or get in the way of rescue. Their usefulness for children are already controversial. Look at the 2 decade old British legislation making seatbelts mandatory for children. And, all those 6 or 8 airbags you have might not deploy under certain conditions- I lost a friend who was thrown off his car when the doors unlocked automatically after his car tipped over, and not a single one of the car's 6 airbags ever deployed after the crash!

Forum members who have some spare time, please do a search on the web. You can find any number of studies including those from frontline Universities and think- tanks which have found the actual effectiveness of such features debatable. Please don't skin me for what I've said ! in advance!
It is rather unfortunate that you lost a friend but it definitely looks like he was not strapped in! If he was he would not have been thrown off plus the airbags would have deployed. The airbags do not deploy till at least the driver is strapped in. And in terms of the doors unlocking, it is again a safety feature in some cars so that you are able to escape.

Now coming to the point of this thread, in my opinion, it will be very dangerous if at least Airbags are made mandatory as they will cause more harm if some or any of the passengers are not strapped in. This is mainly because of people not wanting to strap in. Before this is made mandatory, a lot of education will have to be done at the dealership level and maybe bold stickers asking them to strap in and the consequences of not strapping in.

Last edited by sarmarishi : 7th June 2010 at 16:20.
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Old 7th June 2010, 16:36   #33
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[quote=amitk26;1924322
I am sure once ABS and Airbags are mandated manufacturers will fall in line and also prices will rationalize over period of time.

Honda , Toyota and Suzuki are selling models with Airbags and ABS outside india at much cheaper price. All that talk of tax is hubris because taxes in India today are quite in line with most of the developed countries .[/quote]

+1 to that. If the govt mandates Airbags/ABS as mandatory, vehicle manufacturers will find ways to make them affordable. It is the apathy of the govt that Airbags are still considered luxury. Together with seat belts they can save many lives.

ABS never claims that it reduces the stopping distance. It lets one to steer clear of obstacles which warranted such application of brakes. Even at 40kmph, I have seen ABS in action in Blore, when I had to stop all of a sudden and I could steer away from the moron motor cyclist who decided to stop in the middle of the road and talk to his friend on the other side of the road. So, it is a misnomer to say that ABS is needed only in highway driving.

I sincerely hope the govt makes it mandatory to have atleast airbags in all cars. Seat belts are mandatory any way now. With the combination of these two, crash safety improves manifolds.

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Old 7th June 2010, 16:47   #34
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Due to the widespread ignorance about ABS, I can admit that it could be a negative factor. Too many people think that with ABS you can drive faster and take more risks.
Quote:
when I had to stop all of a sudden and I could steer away from the moron motor cyclist who decided to stop in the middle of the road and talk to his friend
Yep... that obstacle that it helps to steer around could well be another human being. ABS just might save more lives outside the car than in it!
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Old 7th June 2010, 16:59   #35
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Forget about Airbags & ABS, there are hell lot of cars/small commercial vehicles which are still on sale without any passive safety!!! IMHO its all because of the Govt. + Manufacturers nexus.

I personally feel that Maruti-Suzuki could have easily driven the 'safety' aspect of a car. After all they are the market leaders. If they implement ABS + Airbag (driver side) as a standard, rest all manufacturers will blindly follow that.

I don't see anything which will make masses take ABS/Airbags seriously here in India.
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Old 7th June 2010, 18:25   #36
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Manufacturers would do well to offer ABS and airbags as options in lower to mid range variants. By including them only in high end versions, car makers are actually discouraging the use of secondary safety features by pricing it out of reach of those who need them.

For those who think that ABS and airbags do not matter to the general car buying public, think again. Ten years back, the only cars that had these features were imported cars. Nowadays you can even buy a small car with ABS and airbags. Yes, it has been and will continue to be a painfully slow transition, but people are definitely more aware today.
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Old 7th June 2010, 18:40   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Due to the widespread ignorance about ABS, I can admit that it could be a negative factor. Too many people think that with ABS you can drive faster and take more risks.
Incidentally, this is true in the developed world too. Its not ignorance, its actually knowledge which hurts! It is well documented that drivers who have ABS drive faster and take more risks because they know that they can never lock their wheels thanks to ABS. The phenomenon in a more general context is called risk compensation. Google it to read more
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Old 7th June 2010, 19:14   #38
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You are right about that.

When soimeone is doing something dangerous, it is counter-productive to make them feel safe.
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Old 7th June 2010, 19:50   #39
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Originally Posted by HammerHead View Post
I personally feel that Maruti-Suzuki could have easily driven the 'safety' aspect of a car. After all they are the market leaders. If they implement ABS + Airbag (driver side) as a standard, rest all manufacturers will blindly follow that.
Couple of years back there was talk of Tata Motors getting a vendor to make airbags for the Nano at 10$ per vehicle. What happened to that?
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Old 7th June 2010, 21:19   #40
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Just to add - I rented a Hyundai accent (the Verna in India) for this weekend. This was the cheapest car offered by Enterprise car rentals, and did not have central locking, FATC, remote locking, power windows and power mirrors.
However - it had 6 airbags, ABS and TPMS - and this is what government mandates can do.
I guess people now should have an idea about what are 'must have' features and what are 'good to have' features.
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Old 7th June 2010, 21:36   #41
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Originally Posted by blackasta View Post
Just to add - I rented a Hyundai accent (the Verna in India) for this weekend. This was the cheapest car offered by Enterprise car rentals, and did not have central locking, FATC, remote locking, power windows and power mirrors.
However - it had 6 airbags, ABS and TPMS - and this is what government mandates can do.
US law only mandates 2 airbags I think. And doesn't mandate ABS. So this is not really a good example of what govt mandates can do. This is probably a better example of what can be provided even without govt mandates.
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Old 8th June 2010, 00:14   #42
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US law only mandates 2 airbags I think. And doesn't mandate ABS. So this is not really a good example of what govt mandates can do. This is probably a better example of what can be provided even without govt mandates.

Well - The govt. mandated 2+TPMS, all started with 2+TPMS, some whent ahead and offered 4+ABS+TPMS for stading out, and the competition took notice and started offering 6+ABS+TPMS - which has now become the de-facto norm.
But govt. mandates did set the ball rolling - which is almost totally absent from Indian govt.
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Old 8th June 2010, 04:15   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Due to the widespread ignorance about ABS, I can admit that it could be a negative factor. Too many people think that with ABS you can drive faster and take more risks.Yep... that obstacle that it helps to steer around could well be another human being. ABS just might save more lives outside the car than in it!
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
Incidentally, this is true in the developed world too. Its not ignorance, its actually knowledge which hurts! It is well documented that drivers who have ABS drive faster and take more risks because they know that they can never lock their wheels thanks to ABS. The phenomenon in a more general context is called risk compensation. Google it to read more
I think it is not just ABS that gives the driver the confidence to drive faster. If you combine ABS with Traction Control and some kind of Electronic Stability Control (there are numerous versions of it), together these systems help maximize the potential that the vehicle would travel in the intended direction. So, obviously driver confidence increases.

But the common perception that ABS is technically for Sudden brakes to avoid an accident is wrong. While driving in US, I find the ABS and related systems are put to use more while taming the corners, driving around the wet(slippery) surfaces, etc. So, one can say these systems make the vehicle safe to drive. But the most important safety mechanism for one and all on the road is the Safe Driver who knows how to control the machine .
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Old 8th June 2010, 21:03   #44
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While driving in US, I find the ABS and related systems are put to use more while taming the corners, driving around the wet(slippery) surfaces,
as LOL CAT might say: DO NOT COMPREHEND

ABS might help you if you have to do an emergency stop while cornering, that is what it is for --- but, bottom line is, you are not supposes to be braking on a curve. Brake into the curve, power through it, accelerate out of it. Braking in the curve by those who don't know this has probably led to quite a few cars being written off
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Old 10th June 2010, 21:13   #45
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Airbags and ABS are only available in the top end variants because there are people (lots of them I must add) to buy cars without these essential life saving devices.

So, if the manufacture is getting more for his buck and the govt isn't stopping him, it makes good business sense. If the govt puts its foot down and makes it mandatory, or if people refrain from buying cars without ABS and airbags, then the manufacturers will fall in line.

Last edited by neutralgrey : 10th June 2010 at 21:15.
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