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Old 12th March 2008, 21:10   #76
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There is a major difference in mentality here. The western mind cannot accept anything that is not regulated, has boundaries that no one can cross, and is generally driven by rules. You live in a highly regulated society where everything you do or are likely to do have to follow processes set up by someone before you. Any sign of individualism is immediately termed 'chaos' or 'anarchy'.
What do you mean my "sign of individualism" in this context? Would you have the guts to show the so called "sign of individualism” while driving in Dubai ( saw this from you profile, sorry if I am mistaken). I guess there won’t be any takers for you show other than the guys dressed in green sitting on their 4x4

This is what we all do, when we are abroad, we drive as per the countries rules but the moment we land back home, we cut lanes, drive rashly, overtake on forbidden zones, exceed speed limits. Have you ever thought of the vehicle you just overtook from the left and cut across to overtake the next vehicle from the right? I might be a man driving at a normal speed with his family, who might have lost control and crashed due to the unexpected interrogation you made. Well, who cares, I have a premium car, and I am not from the west, I have every right to drive rashly and show “signs of individualism”.

Steeroid, rules and boundaries are imposed by nations not just for others safety, more importantly ours.
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Old 12th March 2008, 21:27   #77
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Heck. Having driven worldover for the past couple of decades, all i can say is:

(1) If you need to drive at piddly speeds in your V8/ sportscar, stick to the American continent.

(2) If you need to drive as on a racetrack stick around in Europe

(3) If you are driving for an adrenaline rush, stick to India

cheers:

The roads are as good or as bad as you can make them to be(assuming everyone is awake when driving). We have the same set of crazies everywhere, all homosapiens.
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Old 12th March 2008, 22:29   #78
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Originally Posted by ajibba View Post
This is what we all do, when we are abroad, we drive as per the countries rules but the moment we land back home, we cut lanes, drive rashly, overtake on forbidden zones, exceed speed limits. Have you ever thought of the vehicle you just overtook from the left and cut across to overtake the next vehicle from the right? I might be a man driving at a normal speed with his family, who might have lost control and crashed due to the unexpected interrogation you made. Well, who cares, I have a premium car, and I am not from the west, I have every right to drive rashly and show “signs of individualism”.

Steeroid, rules and boundaries are imposed by nations not just for others safety, more importantly ours.
I dont mind rules.i agree, rules are for safety. but too much of regulation is a bad thing. most motorways in the Uk are good enough for speeds higher than the silly 70mph blanket limit.

and most highways in india are better than what the equally moronic 70kmph blanket limit offers.

people should be able to drive at the most comfortable speeds they(and their cars) are capable of.

I dont overtake from the left usually, but when there is a pansy in the right most lane of the highway doing 50kmph and not letting you pass, i overtake from the left.I have no choice.

I'm sure most BHPians are like that. i doubt if there are any BHPians who drive rashly and wilfully cause other road users hardship. they break the rules because there is no other alternative.

both situations are not ideal
i.e- india's chaos and the over regulated western world. like someone else said on this thread, there needs to be a happy medium.
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Old 13th March 2008, 17:13   #79
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Originally Posted by ajibba View Post
What do you mean my "sign of individualism" in this context? Would you have the guts to show the so called "sign of individualism” while driving in Dubai ( saw this from you profile, sorry if I am mistaken). I guess there won’t be any takers for you show other than the guys dressed in green sitting on their 4x4

This is what we all do, when we are abroad, we drive as per the countries rules but the moment we land back home, we cut lanes, drive rashly, overtake on forbidden zones, exceed speed limits. Have you ever thought of the vehicle you just overtook from the left and cut across to overtake the next vehicle from the right? I might be a man driving at a normal speed with his family, who might have lost control and crashed due to the unexpected interrogation you made. Well, who cares, I have a premium car, and I am not from the west, I have every right to drive rashly and show “signs of individualism”.

Steeroid, rules and boundaries are imposed by nations not just for others safety, more importantly ours.
Glad somone else thought that might have been a bit over the top. We're in agreement here ajjba.
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Old 14th March 2008, 09:48   #80
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Originally Posted by ajibba View Post
What do you mean my "sign of individualism" in this context? Would you have the guts to show the so called "sign of individualism” while driving in Dubai ( saw this from you profile, sorry if I am mistaken). I guess there won’t be any takers for you show other than the guys dressed in green sitting on their 4x4

This is what we all do, when we are abroad, we drive as per the countries rules but the moment we land back home, we cut lanes, drive rashly, overtake on forbidden zones, exceed speed limits. Have you ever thought of the vehicle you just overtook from the left and cut across to overtake the next vehicle from the right? I might be a man driving at a normal speed with his family, who might have lost control and crashed due to the unexpected interrogation you made. Well, who cares, I have a premium car, and I am not from the west, I have every right to drive rashly and show “signs of individualism”.

Steeroid, rules and boundaries are imposed by nations not just for others safety, more importantly ours.
Very well said, you can also add to that littering and spitting and what not....
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Old 14th March 2008, 11:28   #81
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Advocatus, dude, in my neck of the woods(Hyderabad) , people don't enjoy their expensive cars. The chauffer does.
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Old 14th March 2008, 17:31   #82
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I dont mind rules.i agree, rules are for safety. but too much of regulation is a bad thing. most motorways in the Uk are good enough for speeds higher than the silly 70mph blanket limit.

and most highways in india are better than what the equally moronic 70kmph blanket limit offers.
I don’t understand why you are cribbing so much on the 70 mph (that’s a 112 kph, which I consider is not bad). Have you ever though why governments implement speed limits, usually which is from 70 to 80 mph

The prime reason is for safety. It is at this speed even if you encounter a emergency situation, a sudden breaking can bring the car to a safe stop.

Studies have shown in the UK and worldwide that, at these speeds (70 mph) emissions and pollution are reduced.

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people should be able to drive at the most comfortable speeds they(and their cars) are capable of.
You mentioned that people should be able to drive at the most comfortable speeds they(and their cars) are capable of. What is “ the most comfortable speed” ? Does it vary on the individual and the car? So for instance, if you are knocked down by a speeding Porsche at 100 mph on a 55 capped road, and the case comes to court, as per your equation, the driver can say that he drove at the most comfortable speeds he (and his car) are capable of, and walk free.

R.geo, driving speed that is comfortable to you might not be comfortable to others. It is all about being courteous and showing respect to fellow drivers. In the UK and of course many parts of the world , if you wanted to cut to a right lane ( or left depending on the driving rules) , and a car stops in the opposite direction and gives way, you show a gesture with you hand saying thanks. I am sure you have done this millions of times while driving in UK, but how may times have you done this in India? We don’t do it because nobody else does it.

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Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post
all you need is money,callousness and a complete lack of consideration for other road users and you can drive any car, at any speed that it is capable of.

where would I drive them? anywhere! baap ka road!!!
Wow! Indeed great attitude from a Doctor…shows how professional ethics and driving ethics are at par. Maybe next time you meet a driver with the same attitude and said Qualities (money, callousness, lack of consideration..etc) in the causality, call him out for a drink.

There would be millions of others who wouldn’t want to give their hard earned money to the police and the legal system to walk out of a case, rather, who like to drive safe at a normal speed who doesn’t think “ Baap ka road” but who thinks “ my children or parents might also be driving on the same road”.
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Old 14th March 2008, 21:43   #83
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I don’t understand why you are cribbing so much on the 70 mph (that’s a 112 kph, which I consider is not bad). Have you ever though why governments implement speed limits, usually which is from 70 to 80 mph

the roads and cars there are capable of handling much higher speeds safely.thats all i'm saying. i dont need the government to look after me, i'm capable of doing so myself.
If there are people who would like to be babysat, thats fine, go hang on the shirtails of the shortsighted, alarmist, politically correct goverment, just dont impose it on people who like to be free.

The prime reason is for safety. It is at this speed even if you encounter a emergency situation, a sudden breaking can bring the car to a safe stop.
if the traffic is heavy, i would'nt even travel at 70mph. I need to be able to use my judgement when driving. not the judgement of a desk bound bureaucrat, who reads too many feminist magazines!

Studies have shown in the UK and worldwide that, at these speeds (70 mph) emissions and pollution are reduced.
so do you cycle to work ? or do you drive?


You mentioned that people should be able to drive at the most comfortable speeds they(and their cars) are capable of. What is “ the most comfortable speed” ?

Does it vary on the individual and the car?
yes it does!

So for instance, if you are knocked down by a speeding Porsche at 100 mph on a 55 capped road, and the case comes to court, as per your equation, the driver can say that he drove at the most comfortable speeds he (and his car) are capable of, and walk free.
there is a difference between fast driving and rash driving.if the porsche was fast, but not rash, and hit me because of my stupidity, i wouldnt want him to be punished. if its his fault, he needs to be punished.
just because he's driving fast doesnt automatically mean its his fault.


R.geo, driving speed that is comfortable to you might not be comfortable to others. It is all about being courteous and showing respect to fellow drivers. In the UK and of course many parts of the world , if you wanted to cut to a right lane ( or left depending on the driving rules) , and a car stops in the opposite direction and gives way, you show a gesture with you hand saying thanks. I am sure you have done this millions of times while driving in UK, but how may times have you done this in India? We don’t do it because nobody else does it.
actually, i do do it india! still! but most people mistake it for a rude gesture, so i also make sure i have my most pleasing smile pasted on.


Originally Posted by rippergeo
all you need is money,callousness and a complete lack of consideration for other road users and you can drive any car, at any speed that it is capable of.

where would I drive them? anywhere! baap ka road!!!



Wow! Indeed great attitude from a Doctor…shows how professional ethics and driving ethics are at par. Maybe next time you meet a driver with the same attitude and said Qualities (money, callousness, lack of consideration..etc) in the causality, call him out for a drink.

Its called sarcasm!
if you dont get it,I'm sorry!
and...there is no need for personal attacks on me. you read one post by myself, completely fail to see the point i was making, and then insult my morality and professional ethics? that doesnt seem right!


There would be millions of others who wouldn’t want to give their hard earned money to the police and the legal system to walk out of a case, rather, who like to drive safe at a normal speed who doesn’t think “ Baap ka road” but who thinks “ my children or parents might also be driving on the same road”.
if you want to drive slowly, drive slowly.i dont mind! just dont hog the right most lane. and dont lobby the stupid govt for more speed limits.

@ajibba
70mph is safer than 80,I know that.
but 60 is safer than 70, and 50 is safer than 60, and 40 is safer than 50, and....you get the picture.

lets all cycle. no wait! thats not as safe as running! hmm... lets walk.

PS- are doctors not allowed to drive fast? are'nt we human like any other professional?

Last edited by rippergeo : 14th March 2008 at 21:46.
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Old 14th March 2008, 21:59   #84
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Would you have the guts to show the so called "sign of individualism” while driving in Dubai ( saw this from you profile, sorry if I am mistaken).
Kindly watch your tone. You are mistaken about a lot of things in that opening paragraph, but thats not the debate here. I would, however, encourage you to spend some time on the roads here once in a while.

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Originally Posted by ajibba View Post
This is what we all do, when we are abroad, we drive as per the countries rules but the moment we land back home, we cut lanes, drive rashly, overtake on forbidden zones, exceed speed limits.
Please speak for yourself, not for everyone else out here.

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Well, who cares, I have a premium car, and I am not from the west, I have every right to drive rashly and show “signs of individualism”.
If that is how you interpret 'individualism', then there is no debate.

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Steeroid, rules and boundaries are imposed by nations not just for others safety, more importantly ours.
Did anyone here say that this is not the case? The point here is not whether we require rules and regulations - that particular point is one of the many that are being raised out here with reference to the thread initiator's original question. Kindly let the discussion proceed along the original lines.
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Old 14th March 2008, 22:03   #85
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Very intersting statistics starscream, thank you.

Would seem that Steeriods statement: "Besides, most of the stats are based on 'assumptions' - we really do not have a scientific measurement methodology, nor a national register." is simply incorrect.

Your sources seems very official.
Ummm...I was speaking about the statistics attributed to India in a similarly official report (I will dig it out - need some time) which compared road accident rates in different countries before coming up with a list of 'most dangerous countries'. They were going about this by taking the absolute number of accident fatalities there, which is again a very debatable method. The source of that report was clearly attributed to a link to a report on 'newkerala.com' which is hardly what one might call 'official'. The stats quoted there ARE based on assumptions - I do not intentionally make "incorrect" observations simply to justify a point.

W.R.T your last statement I will be glad to take it up with you outside this thread, because that observation stems from your posts not just here in this thread but elsewhere on the forum, too. Therefore it is best discussed privately - if you feel it is worth discussion, that is.

Last edited by Steeroid : 14th March 2008 at 22:13.
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Old 15th March 2008, 12:56   #86
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Hmm.. a post about why high performance cars are not suitable for India starts off a brickbats galore- what a shame guys. Wasn't his supposed to be a purely automobile related question? why are people bringing in nationalistic passions to the answers, just goes to show how much emotional we as a nation are. The first few posts entirely concluded the question so to speak and the rest is all off-topic
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Old 15th March 2008, 15:42   #87
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Its all about exploring the length and breadth of the country to see where are the good roads to drive explosive cars. But mind you, with great power comes great responsibility as well! We have seen enough accidents involving fast cars on the best of the roads in India.

However, I disagree with the thread-starter to a large extent that there are no roads in India to have fun with the super cars/fast cars.
I agree with the thread-starter that we are not ready for super-fast cars. It is not just a question of having fun, it is a question of safety. If you want to do sustained high speeds, say in the 150 kmph range, then most of all you need *predictability*. Roads must be predictably good, people should predictably stick to the foot-paths, lane discipline must be predictable and so on. Two-wheelers, cycles, autos, bullock carts to be banned, animals should be fenced out, etc., etc. But where do we have such conditions? The Mumbai-Pune Expressway is one such road, but even there I have seen very few people doing sustained high speeds in the 140+ range. For the simple reason that it is not safe, with slow traffic in all three lanes. I have not seen many people in the bigger, heavier sedans willing to cut lanes and zig-zag their way through traffic at 140+ kmph.

If you leave out the Expressways, give me a small maneuverable car with just enough acceleration for both city and highway, and I will have lots and lots of fun on Indian roads. Don't need the bigger, heavier sedans or super-cars. Yesterday I started from Hadapsar in Pune at 8-55 PM and I was in Sion, 174 kms away, at 11-05 PM in my old Santro. That is an average speed of ~80 kmph through moderate traffic in a supposedly slow car, but cuts through traffic like a hot knife through butter. Come to think of it, it is not that much of a sluggard even on the Expressway, with its ability to cut lanes at will. More than good enough for me.

Of course I would be happier if I had a more powerful car on most roads in the advanced nations. But on most Indian roads, it is not safe to drive the powerful cars to anywhere near their full potential. In my view the heavy acceleration these cars are capable of (which we all lust after) is a killer. Remember that the greater the acceleration, the more difficult it is to bring the car to a halt or to change course, in case of emergencies. We will see many, many accidents if people rip around in super-fast cars on our roads.

Last edited by rks : 15th March 2008 at 15:45.
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Old 15th March 2008, 16:11   #88
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the roads and cars there are capable of handling much higher speeds safely.thats all i'm saying. i dont need the government to look after me, i'm capable of doing so myself.If there are people who would like to be babysat, thats fine, go hang on the shirtails of the shortsighted, alarmist, politically correct goverment, just dont impose it on people who like to be free.
This is what freedom means to you..OK!

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if the traffic .... not the judgement of a desk bound bureaucrat, who reads too many feminist magazines! .
Your notion about how this work in the UK. I dont want to debate this, certainly off topic.

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so do you cycle to work ? or do you drive?.
Was mentioning about emissions at 70mph and a reason why the limit was fixed...I dont know how (cycle - work) come into play?..again off topic.

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with nicer cars in india, there is more scope to be a hooligan.
I am sure this again is sarcasm
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Old 15th March 2008, 16:32   #89
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I agree with the thread-starter that we are not ready for super-fast cars.
Not true, superfast cars can be driven sensibly, you can wait for the right kind of road before you exploit the potential. that is the situation in every part of the world.
my contention is that those oppurtunities are more in india because of the lack of enforcement of speed limits.

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It is not just a question of having fun, it is a question of safety.
I partly agree. its a question of having fun, safely

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If you want to do sustained high speeds, say in the 150 kmph range, then most of all you need *predictability*. Roads must be predictably good, people should predictably stick to the foot-paths, lane discipline must be predictable and so on. Two-wheelers, cycles, autos, bullock carts to be banned, animals should be fenced out, etc., etc. But where do we have such conditions?
actually, indian roads are predictable. there is always someone cutting into your lane from the opposite side at a corner, there is always a slow vehicle crawling in the passing lane. that auto you see screaming at its rev limit in front of you will try to execute a U turn just as you start to overtake it.

Indian roads are predictable. they are always unsafe.



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If you leave out the Expressways, give me a small maneuverable car with just enough acceleration for both city and highway, and I will have lots and lots of fun on Indian roads.
this is where i completely agree with you. who says you have to drive at 150kmph to have fun? who says you need to drive a supercar to have fun?
i can be driving at 40kmph through the city in a little hatch, and still have fun, and not worry about being photographed by the govt for speeding.

for eg- the thread starter himself got ticketed for doing a piddling 34mph in a 30mph zone at 0200hrs.How silly is that?

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Don't need the bigger, heavier sedans or super-cars. Yesterday I started from Hadapsar in Pune at 8-55 PM and I was in Sion, 174 kms away, at 11-05 PM in my old Santro. That is an average speed of ~80 kmph through moderate traffic in a supposedly slow car, but cuts through traffic like a hot knife through butter. Come to think of it, it is not that much of a sluggard even on the Expressway, with its ability to cut lanes at will. More than good enough for me.
See, I love driving like that, but some people think that is rash, and its not going to be long before someone on the forum flames you for driving like that, and me for admitting that i like driving like that.
as long as I'm not running anyone off the road, or making them swerve or panic brake,i think I'm being safe! people might disagree, but I think its logical.

Of course it would be safer to stick to my own lane, and I'd rather drive in my own lane if i had the choice. but that option does not exist in india. you have to weave and lane change like mad to get somewhere on time. The thing is,I enjoy doing that.

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Of course I would be happier if I had a more powerful car on most roads in the advanced nations. But on most Indian roads, it is not safe to drive the powerful cars to anywhere near their full potential.
True, as you say, most roads. but when you find a good safe road to have fun, there is no copper playing spoilsport. thats what I love about india.

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In my view the heavy acceleration these cars are capable of (which we all lust after) is a killer.
I don't agree, the faster a car can accelerate, the safer it is. it means you can complete your overtaking maneuver before danger gets to you from the opp lane.

If you say that the car accelerated too fast for you to control it, you have no one else to blame but you and your right foot.

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Remember that the greater the acceleration, the more difficult it is to bring the car to a halt or to change course, in case of emergencies.
there i agree, but that should be in our mind when we are driving a car that performs.but cars that accelerate well, usually are also built to handle and stop well(usually)
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Old 15th March 2008, 16:40   #90
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I would, however, encourage you to spend some time on the roads here once in a while.
Does “here” mean Dubai?? – have spent four good years of my life in Dubai. Drove 1000’s of miles. Anything encouraging you would like share on the driving experience there, please do, will be more than happy to discuss it outside this tread.


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The point here is not whether we require rules and regulations - that particular point is one of the many that are being raised out here with reference to the thread initiator's original question. Kindly let the discussion proceed along the original lines.

Totally agree with you. Let’s stick to the original topic.
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