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Old 20th March 2008, 12:05   #1
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Question Is German Engineering THAT superior

Mods: pls move this thread if this is not the appropriate section.

Been thinking about this of late, when i see specs of new diesels in the Indian market.

Ford Endeavor: 2.5L/4cyl 145bhp 34kgm
Ford Endeavor thunder: 3L/4cyl 158bhp 38.5kgm
Tata Safari: 2.2L/4Cyl 140 bhp 32kgm
Toyota innova: 2.5L/4 Cyl 100 bhp 20KGM
mitsubishi montero: 3.2L/4Cyl 165bhp 38kgm

now look at the germans;

Audi Q7, BMW X5/525d, merc E280cdi/S320cdi, VW Touareg 3.0

all these germans are 3L 6 cyl engines with approx 230 (+/- 5) bhp and in excess of 50KGM of torque.

surely the extra 2 cyl cannot make so much difference. and I also dont buy the argument of detuned for indian markets thing, since all these cars are sold in india and run on the same fuel and conditions.

so what gives?
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Old 20th March 2008, 12:07   #2
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It technology and then the engineering refinement around it.

Indian Auto industry is still in its nacent stage. A lot needs to be learned.
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Old 20th March 2008, 13:14   #3
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of the above examples, the Safari is the only Indain car- rest all are Jampanese/american
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Old 20th March 2008, 13:23   #4
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Himansu,good thoughts Buddie.But definitely the additional 2 cylinders does have something to do with it.The work done by 4 cylinders are divided among 6 cylinders and so there should be a boost in power and torque.The issue is that the cost of manufacturing is more for the 6 cyl than the 4 cyl ones and so some of the manufacturers compromise power for cost effectiveness.
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Old 20th March 2008, 13:28   #5
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Isn't price a criteria? Those german cars/SUVs cost nearly double of their jap/amer/Indian couterparts (except maybe the montiero).
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Old 20th March 2008, 13:32   #6
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According to the topic , the German people are pioneer in Machine Tool making nothing stands in front of them. But I have no comments on automobiles.
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Old 20th March 2008, 13:32   #7
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You dont buy a Audi Q7, BMW X5/525d, merc E280cdi/S320cdi, VW Touareg 3.0 just for the engine.
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Old 20th March 2008, 13:36   #8
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I am no expert, so my question may be out of place, but does six cylinders not mean more metal to move for the same amount of fuel? Albeit, it will mean more smooth generation of power. But still, 50 to 80 more horsepower means there more than meets the eye.
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Old 20th March 2008, 13:38   #9
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Hyundai gets 110BHP from 1.5 L engine which is close the the BHP/Liter of Germans.
I don't think its technology(or lack of) which is the culprit.
There are lots of other factors.
Imaging a 2.2L Tata safari with the powerplant doing 170BHP.
That would decrease the FE, and be dangerous on such a vehicle.
Look at the Grande, same engine, but detuned.
Not for Fuel quality reasons, but for the limits of chassis, FE and drivability.

Ditto for the 1.3L Fiat engine, capable of 90BHP, but keeping in mind costs etc., is a 75bhp powerplant.

So its not engineering which is a blocker.
Tata has a 100bhp 1.4L petrol engine which is simply commendable for a NA engine without a turbo, but does it fit that in all its 1.4L petrol sedans?

Nothing to do with engineering here, these are marketing decisions.
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Old 20th March 2008, 13:46   #10
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Quote:
Nothing to do with engineering here, these are marketing decisions.
then how do you explain teh Montero's power out put from a 3.2L block?

at one point, the montero was a worthy rival of the Land Cruiser in terms of image....not so anymore!.....would Mitsu not want to regain that position?

Also tuning/detuning should not be able to account for 60 odd BHP surely, unless teh detuned engine has been made seriously anemic compared to its true potential!
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Old 20th March 2008, 13:51   #11
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German Engineering ...

Germany is known as mecca of Automobile engineering.

Referring to the posts, we can vouch on german techonlogy and its refinement.

Precision in tuning a vehicle and even achieving optimum performance through it, nextly the longevity of German engines are unmatchable.

Look at examples of

1) Merc
2) Audi
3) BMW
4) VW
5) Opel

Just no cars match their performance.

I am not debating the fact that Indian Automobile industry is bad.

Yes Indian Auto is emerging, with the likes of TATA's and Mahindra's we have made a mark that yes India has arrived,

But we might take time for it.

Finally YES GERMAN ENGINEERING IS THAT DAMN GOOD.
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Old 20th March 2008, 14:20   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by himanshugoswami View Post
then how do you explain teh Montero's power out put from a 3.2L block?

at one point, the montero was a worthy rival of the Land Cruiser in terms of image....not so anymore!.....would Mitsu not want to regain that position?

Also tuning/detuning should not be able to account for 60 odd BHP surely, unless teh detuned engine has been made seriously anemic compared to its true potential!
Low power does not essentially mean detuning.
If you think Skoda Octavia 90bhp TDi is detuned from 200bhp, it would be wrong. Its engine design.
MY point was that its not that the Tatas and fords lack technology.

Tata as the technology to make 70BHP/liter engines. One of the cars also has that engine, but they don't put it everywhere.
It would be wrong to say Mitsubishi does not have the technology to make an engine with 200+ bhp with 3L.
Many manufacturers including our homegrown Tata have that technology.
But what technology goes into the final product is very much of a marketing decision.

As of today, all major companies of the world, even indian, have the ability and technology to get 230BHP from a 3L V6 engine.
However I am quite sure nobody will buy a 20 Lakh 230BHP V6 safari(except steeroid ). However there will be buyers for 55 Lakh BMW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
G
Finally YES GERMAN ENGINEERING IS THAT DAMN GOOD.
Agree with you here. But the question in this thread is "Can manufactures other than the germans achieve 75BHP/liter.

An example.
A ford mustang V6 with 4L produces 200bhp, thats 50BHP/liter.
That does not mean that Ford does not have the tech to get more than 50BHP/liter, its just that it does not put in that tech for this engine.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 20th March 2008 at 14:22.
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Old 20th March 2008, 14:27   #13
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Also keep in mind the fact that Germans intentionally release engines with conservative power ratings, only to increase them with the *facelift* version, or even the all *new" generation. The same engine that pumped 115 horses in the C200 CDi delivers 141 BHP in my C220 (simple remap), and 170 BHP in the new C220 (some new hardware).
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Old 20th March 2008, 14:35   #14
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I dont know why we are discussing only the BHP part of the engine.

Kirloskars produce Diesel engines which are ranging from 3 HP to 7200 HP.

The engineering we should be talking about should be a product on the whole, handling, efficiency etc etc, the technologies used in manufacturing to give us a product as best as commercially possible.
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Old 20th March 2008, 14:40   #15
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Yeah, the have high power output and it is dependent on no of cylinders too but more than that it is the power output per cc of engine capacity which is higher in those vehicles. In other words they have higher power density packed in those engines of theirs. That requires cutting edge technology in mechanical, chemical and materials engineering with tremendous amounts of experience and innovation which also means more quality but at the same time being more expensive.
That requires a market that demands and sustains that kind of business and you won't find such vehicles manufactured in a price sensitive market such as India.
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