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Old 25th March 2008, 12:07   #16
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Originally Posted by iraghava View Post
If they do that, they won't be shooting themselves in the foot! It'll be more like chopping both their legs off!!
IMO, I feel it was Toyota who priced the Camry in the wrong segment from the start, though at the time it was introduced it was probably one of the more luxurious vehicle around. Right now, they may have to cut back on the price of the Camry.

If they plan on introducing the Lexus range into the Indian market, the placement would be like around the world, the Lexus range would have to be a little above the Toyota range, infact in the UAE the link between the two can only be found in the Toyota Avalon, which is priced on the borderline of the two brands. The competition of the IS would have to be C/3/A4. The Camry actually should figure in the region of Accord/Epica/Sonata and all these are generally a bit lower than the Germans.

I really can't comment too much on this topic, atleast for the Indian market, cause I am unfamiliar with the scene. But I have given my viewpoint from out here in the UAE, this is the scene out here. I think it should be about the same in India too.

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Old 25th March 2008, 12:12   #17
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yes, Lexus enjoys excellent brand equity here in India [most people don't know it's a Toyota :lol]
You bet! The opportunity to own a high-value brand without annoying reliability issues or the high ownership costs of German cars will be lapped up by our market. Even the Indian customer who owns a 50 lakh Benz does care about fuel and upkeep costs.

They say that the LS is far more refined / comfortable than the S / 7 / A8. Why? Simply because it has no sporty pretentions, thus does not need to focus on handling prowess. Comfort is of paramount importance.

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Perhaps some price adjustment of Camry or assembling Lexus in India or duty cuts by the Govt.
Agreed. Toyota are well aware of the growth in the D-segment. Its only a matter of time before they start local assembly of the Camry.

Last edited by GTO : 25th March 2008 at 12:13.
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Old 25th March 2008, 12:37   #18
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They say that the LS is far more refined / comfortable than the S / 7 / A8. Why? Simply because it has no sporty pretentions, thus does not need to focus on handling prowess. Comfort is of paramount importance.
Lexus wouldn't be happy about this statement. They are also moving towards sportiness with luxury. The GS has been targeting the 5 series and the recent LS is more sporty (relative to previous versions). It might be just a matter of time when they will compete hard in handling department. The engine options and size are already in that region. It will be done without loss of reliability as with a Lexus.

I drove the first generation IS a lot which was more sportier than a 3 series. The balance with luxury and comfort was lacking.

Last edited by srishiva : 25th March 2008 at 12:39.
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Old 25th March 2008, 12:40   #19
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Lexus wouldn't be happy about this statement. They are also moving towards sportiness with luxury. The GS has been targeting the 5 series and the recent LS is more sporty (relative to previous versions). It might be just a matter of time when they will compete hard in handling department. The engine options and size are already in that region. It will be done without loss of reliability as with a Lexus.
You forgot to mention the ISF & SC, which are sporty all the way and are being targeted at the teens with it's sporty appeal and looks.
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Old 25th March 2008, 12:44   #20
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I just hope that the guys at Toyota India are not smoking any thing illegal this time around, before they get together for the pricing on the Lexus range of cars.

because if you see, the management at Toyota, seems to think that we customers will pay any price for their luxury cars, which is not the case.

Case in point Camry vs. Accord.

Most of the Camry sales are institutional only and are usually bought under the E.P.C.G scheme.
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Old 25th March 2008, 13:54   #21
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Lexus wouldn't be happy about this statement. They are also moving towards sportiness with luxury.
The LS may be sportier than previous gens, but its driver-orientedness is not a patch on that of the S and 7. You would think they didn't even try.
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Old 25th March 2008, 14:03   #22
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The LS may be sportier than previous gens, but its driver-orientedness is not a patch on that of the S and 7. You would think they didn't even try.
I can't agree with you more, GTO. When I drove the 460, it was really sedate around corners with a lot of body roll involved. Acceleration was lack luster and Engine noise was not dramatic or intrusive and the car felt very...... for the lack of a better word "Homey". Its like comfort food - some soup / fried eggs and toast.

The S550's V8 growls and you feel an instant surge of power - This is more like a Jalapeno doused burrito.
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Old 25th March 2008, 14:17   #23
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Moreover Lexus actually has far better brand value in India than Toyota think they have.
True, Lexus will do well in India
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Old 25th March 2008, 17:32   #24
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Came back with an after-thought : Does Lexus have good diesels? I see more diesel badges in new Benz' and BMW's than petrol.
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Old 25th March 2008, 19:22   #25
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Came back with an after-thought : Does Lexus have good diesels? I see more diesel badges in new Benz' and BMW's than petrol.
In Europe, they only had a Diesel in the IS. It was a 2.2l 4 cyl. Manual only transmission. In all other models, they are concentrating on Petrol Hybrids
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Old 25th March 2008, 20:28   #26
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Originally Posted by vcash View Post
I can't agree with you more, GTO. When I drove the 460, it was really sedate around corners with a lot of body roll involved. Acceleration was lack luster and Engine noise was not dramatic or intrusive and the car felt very...... for the lack of a better word "Homey". Its like comfort food - some soup / fried eggs and toast.

The S550's V8 growls and you feel an instant surge of power - This is more like a Jalapeno doused burrito.
I will differ slightly here. Both cars are excellent in quality, fit and finish, no doubt about that. Having said that lets look at some figures below to compare the two;

Lexus LS 460:

Engine & Performance
Engine Type 4.6-liter V8
Horsepower 380 @ 6,400 RPM [3]
Torque (lb-ft) 367 @ 4,100 RPM [3]
Displacement (L/cu in) 4.6/281
Valves 32
Cam Type Four-cam
Emissions Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle (ULEV II)
Performance
0 - 60 mph (sec) 5.4
Top Track Speed (mph) 130 (electronically limited)
-Mile Acceleration (sec) 13.9


Mercedes S550

Engine : 5.5L 32-valve V-8
engineNet power :382 hp @ 6,000 rpm
Net torque : 391 lb-ft @ 2,800 - 4,800 rpm
Acceleration 0-62 mph (s) 5.5
Top speed (mph) 155, electronically limited
1/4 - Mile : n/a

Both have an Aerodynamic Drag Coefficient of 0.26

If we compare the two they are almost similar in every aspect except the star value.
I am a big fan of the star, more so of the BMW in recent times but the Lexus just keeps on amazing me.
Firstly one thing is clear. When one indulges in the purchase of any of these two cars, he/she is buying a luxury car and not a sports car or one would have bought the SL or other versions, or to satisfy dual hunger modes, the AMG spec S class.
When one enters the cabin of any of these two sedans, the feeling is of immense plushness. Crank the engine and they are both super quiet. The Lexus takes the cake in insulation. Step on the gas and the Lexus moves like a powerful cat leaping out of its barricade...and that too very silently. The Lexus can be mistaken for an electrical car, It is so silent.
IMHO the Lexus is as good as its German sibling. The only difference is the countries they are manufactured in. In no way is it inferior to the Mercedes S Class. If the price is right, it could turn out to be an S Class beater here as it was in the US of A in its earlier days.
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Old 26th March 2008, 14:10   #27
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I will differ slightly here. Both cars are excellent in quality, fit and finish, no doubt about that. Having said that lets look at some figures below to compare the two;
V16, I dont think anyone meant that the LS460 is inferior to the S! But the difference is in the level of driver-orientedness. The numbers you post have no telling on the handling, steering precision, body roll etc. of the LS460, which really aren't in the same league as that of the S / 7.

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The Lexus can be mistaken for an electrical car, It is so silent.
Agreed. It is dead silent, even on the move.
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Old 26th March 2008, 21:12   #28
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Lexus has been critized time and again for their models not being sporty, but it seems like they like it that way. Its not that they are not able to make it sporty.
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Old 27th March 2008, 03:53   #29
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Lexus is hoping to rake it in from India's rising rich. Just take the LX as an example - you can rest assured it'll be a status symbol for our elite.
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Old 27th March 2008, 10:25   #30
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Came back with an after-thought : Does Lexus have good diesels? I see more diesel badges in new Benz' and BMW's than petrol.
I am 99.9% sure that they 0 diesel models in the US - and this is in the past 5 years - Maybe its different in Europe \ Japan? Even the LX470 /GX470 were petrol V8's that gave between 16 and 18 MPG. Lexus's focus seems to be on hybrids - case in point the RX400h or LS600h

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Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
I will differ slightly here. Both cars are excellent in quality, fit and finish, no doubt about that.

If we compare the two they are almost similar in every aspect except the star value.
I am a big fan of the star, more so of the BMW in recent times but the Lexus just keeps on amazing me.
Firstly one thing is clear. When one indulges in the purchase of any of these two cars, he/she is buying a luxury car and not a sports car or one would have bought the SL or other versions, or to satisfy dual hunger modes, the AMG spec S class.
When one enters the cabin of any of these two sedans, the feeling is of immense plushness. Crank the engine and they are both super quiet. The Lexus takes the cake in insulation. Step on the gas and the Lexus moves like a powerful cat leaping out of its barricade...and that too very silently. The Lexus can be mistaken for an electrical car, It is so silent.
IMHO the Lexus is as good as its German sibling. The only difference is the countries they are manufactured in. In no way is it inferior to the Mercedes S Class. If the price is right, it could turn out to be an S Class beater here as it was in the US of A in its earlier days.
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
V16, I dont think anyone meant that the LS460 is inferior to the S! But the difference is in the level of driver-orientedness. The numbers you post have no telling on the handling, steering precision, body roll etc. of the LS460, which really aren't in the same league as that of the S / 7.
Hey Gogi Bhai - GTO has already posted what I was about to say - numbers really don't give you a fair inclination of how the car feels. The LS is a great car, no doubt but it just doesnt feel as powerful as the S in terms of delivery - And the cornering can get scary in the LS. That was one of the reasons why we rejected the car even though it was in our price range.

What the LS has going for it over the S is:
a) Pricing - IIRC, it was $69K and was pretty much loaded. Equally spec'd S was touching $90K plus! I don't think the star should command a 20% to 30% markup.
b) NVH - If you like to be cocooned in pure silence, I don't think anything can beat the LS - It is eerily silent.
c) Comfortable Interiors - The S is nice but the LS just ante's up the ball game - get the L edition with the rear club class seats and you think you are flying BA Business and not in a car!
d) Controls - I dislike COMAND \ idrive \ MMI - The LS has kept it simple - buttons laid out nicely - it also appeals more to the older demographic the car caters to.
e) Fantastic A.S.S. - I have never seen any car company take as good care of the customer as the Lexus folk. I have dropped of our GX470 in the US for service at 10:30pm and picked it up next morning on my way to work! Now that is service!

But on all other counts, I think the S beats the LS flat out.

And I don't know how much of a dent the LS has put in the 550's sales - MB Dealer in Greenwich had a 5 to 10 week wait on the 550 - no discounts whatsoever. And they thought that the S450 would not be out for a while so clearly they were being able to move near $100K cars with ease. The Lexus dealer however offered the car for delivery right away.

Last edited by vcash : 27th March 2008 at 10:26.
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