Protectionism, Indian Car Pricing, Development Economics etc

[jesal]

just read petrol to go to rs. 65 and diesel to go to rs. 50. india has lost its freaking plot up the head. im glad some people are actually agreeing with me i thought ill be the only one. and all those people who are saying bmw is a big thing please give me a break. all my families in uk and usa have more bmws and mercs than they ever thought in their lifetimes. in india they had bikes, im taking about the ones who are not from bombay. i just want things to be normal in this country, im against the freaking politicians who are supposed to have 25k salary per month still they will have 5 or close to that exotics worth around 50 laks. all that why becuase i am paying so much tax. the cops suck here as well, they dont know anything just want to make a buck off your butt. they will say u are not wearing belt or helmet or crap, not that they really care but still. indian government is the worst run as much as i have travelled around the world i have seen. i bought bangkok in the picture becuase guess what their roads are way way better than us, fuel is cheaper, all the freaking cars are there and with the women, i came very close to buying a house there as well its not even funny, its like modern india living there. most indians STILL THINK "INDIA WILL BE A HUGE THING IN 10 YEARS." I heard this 10 yrs back and guess what its just gone WORSE. so open your eyes the government really does not love you a lot it just wants your money be smart love your country and if some want to fight back please do so, i cant be bothered, india by the time goes ahead the rest of the world might just be making plans to go to mars. if one does not like what i said dont lash out on me, its my view i have faced tons of issues becuase of this so called LAWS in the messed up country

[rajneeesh]

The problem is that the ruling elite still want to keep the masses backward and uneducated so that they can continue to rule.They give the masses socialist slogans about equality and nothing else. In educated and developed societies, people ask pointed questions from politicians and demand accountability for the money they pay as taxes.

Indian politicians want to let the status quo to prevail, where they ( janta ke sevak) rule like kings, and the "janta" makes do with stupid slogans. though all politicians are bad , the communist parties are the worst as they claim to speak for the masses and have different standards for themselves. ( the Gen Secretary of CPI( M), Prakash Karat holidays in South of France and Italy with his Brother In law's family ( a big media mogul), Harkishan Singh Surjeet spent crores on te wedding of his grandson ( special plnes were chartered), Laloo Yadav spent crores and his men comandeered vehicles from dealerships, Shabana Azmi is a regular in a lot of page 3 society events.

Yet a middle class person aspiring the comfort of a vehicle is taxed heavily . ( excise duty/ VAT, road tax, registeration) and ten again whn he buys fuel.

We need free competition so that the auto sector develops like in case of Telecom where we have the lowest tarrifs in the world and the second highest users of mobile phones. The customer should win and it hardly matters if the car he drives is a Tata/ toyota or a BMW, and whether made in the country or imported.

[spawnofsatan]

Originally Posted by jesal

just read petrol to go to rs. 65 and diesel to go to rs. 50. india has lost its freaking plot up the head. im glad some people are actually agreeing with me i thought ill be the only one. and all those people who are saying bmw is a big thing please give me a break. all my families in uk and usa have more bmws and mercs than they ever thought in their lifetimes. in india they had bikes, im taking about the ones who are not from bombay. i just want things to be normal in this country, im against the freaking politicians who are supposed to have 25k salary per month still they will have 5 or close to that exotics worth around 50 laks. all that why becuase i am paying so much tax. the cops suck here as well, they dont know anything just want to make a buck off your butt. they will say u are not wearing belt or helmet or crap, not that they really care but still. indian government is the worst run as much as i have travelled around the world i have seen. i bought bangkok in the picture becuase guess what their roads are way way better than us, fuel is cheaper, all the freaking cars are there and with the women, i came very close to buying a house there as well its not even funny, its like modern india living there. most indians STILL THINK "INDIA WILL BE A HUGE THING IN 10 YEARS." I heard this 10 yrs back and guess what its just gone WORSE. so open your eyes the government really does not love you a lot it just wants your money be smart love your country and if some want to fight back please do so, i cant be bothered, india by the time goes ahead the rest of the world might just be making plans to go to mars. if one does not like what i said dont lash out on me, its my view i have faced tons of issues becuase of this so called LAWS in the messed up country

Jesal buddy, I agree with you a 100%, something really needs to be done about the duty thing and several other issues we have. maybe someone with political connections could lobby this thing.

[aaggoswami]

@jeasel:

Your point is clear to almost everyone here. We have Baleno which we cannot use because of high fuel cost and space problems. We got this car for 7.5lakhs ( VXi model ).
Now consider this. For $30000, an American can get a great car even with a V6.
Now $30000 * 40 = Rs. 12Lakhs.
What we get is a Civic with 4cld engine. Accent ( Verna in India ) range starts from round about $8000.
$8000 * 40 = Rs. 3.2Lakhs.
We hardly get a loaded Santro/Wagon R.

Dont blame this on currency. Japan has even less valued currency i.e. Yen. But then still ( and despite having space problems that are the worst in the world ) Japan is presently the Second Richest nation in the world and Third Largest Car market.
Our argument is we just got independence in 1947. Hell, man, Japan was destroyed in 1945 due to nuclear bombs. Actually in the second world war, the family business of one family was destryoed. So some young person tried to revive that businnes. he went to Henry ford's plant ( that had the largest assembly line at that point of time ), took tips and then came a new company. That company is Toyota.

My point is that we are still in trouble and there seems to be no solution to it. The basic problem lies in the Indian mentality in general. This is the root cause. We are regular tax payers still the roads are so bad that the suspension of our 800 needs major service or replaecment every 20k kms.
Baleno is reserved for out of station trips.

Out of 50 Rs. we pay for each ltr of fuel, 35 rs. go to government. IOC and other companies show that they are losing money. Well we know most of the money is lost in corruption. I can easily prove it. India get crude at aroun $ 110/ barrel. I think that is Rs 4400 / 220 lts. So that is Rs. 20 per lts. It is sold here at 50 rs after refining ( that has the worst quailty of fuel avaliable ) at Rs 10/ltr loss. So lets say Rs 60 is the cost.
Now if the government taxation is reduced, we would be paying Rs 17 instead of Rs 35/ltr of tax. So teh cost of petrol will be 60-17 - 43 and now IOC and other government companies will be making Rs. 7 per ltr!

I know its really boring to read this, but then the main point is that we are exploited to very insane limits almost everywhere, wheather it be cars, fuels or food.

There is no end to it. We cant change it. We have to suffer. Nothing else.

[srishiva]

Good debate.

On the other hand, people around the world think that India should double the tax/duty on personal transport and promote mass transport systems.

[khanak]

Originally Posted by jesal

just read petrol to go to rs. 65 and diesel to go to rs. 50. india has lost its freaking plot up the head. im glad some people are actually agreeing with me i thought ill be the only one. and all those people who are saying bmw is a big thing please give me a break. all my families in uk and usa have more bmws and mercs than they ever thought in their lifetimes. in india they had bikes, im taking about the ones who are not from bombay. i just want things to be normal in this country, im against the freaking politicians who are supposed to have 25k salary per month still they will have 5 or close to that exotics worth around 50 laks. all that why becuase i am paying so much tax. the cops suck here as well, they dont know anything just want to make a buck off your butt. they will say u are not wearing belt or helmet or crap, not that they really care but still. indian government is the worst run as much as i have travelled around the world i have seen. i bought bangkok in the picture becuase guess what their roads are way way better than us, fuel is cheaper, all the freaking cars are there and with the women, i came very close to buying a house there as well its not even funny, its like modern india living there. most indians STILL THINK "INDIA WILL BE A HUGE THING IN 10 YEARS." I heard this 10 yrs back and guess what its just gone WORSE. so open your eyes the government really does not love you a lot it just wants your money be smart love your country and if some want to fight back please do so, i cant be bothered, india by the time goes ahead the rest of the world might just be making plans to go to mars. if one does not like what i said dont lash out on me, its my view i have faced tons of issues becuase of this so called LAWS in the messed up country

\

Rising fuel costs is a worldwide problem. How much does petrol cost in the UK? I believe its more expensive that India. They also have an absurd congestion charge. Parking costs a bomb in most cities in the developed world. I believe Canadian fuel prices are similar to those in India.

I think what you are really angry about is corruption. We pay so much in taxes and yet some of us arent able to really enjoy the benefits of it. Does Mumbai deserve the kind of roads it has inspite of having so many people paying so much in taxes? NO!! Do we deserve a crap airport that makes the worst first impression on foreign tourists? NO!!

[khanak]

Originally Posted by 1100D

My Original point was that Accord money gets only a Fiesta in India (You pay 5 series money for the Accord). Even domestic market cars are taxed crazy, based on the logic that just 7 out of 1000 people own cars. Instead of trying to get that number to look better, you tax those measly 7 heavily.

Now here is an interesting point. Why does a Fiesta that is made in India cost so much? Are some parts still imported? I believe some parts in cars like Accords and Lauras are still imported which drives up their cost. Are cars like the Swift that sell well enough in the Indian market to justify shifting all production to India available at the same cost in India as opposed to the rest of the world?

[aaggoswami]

Good debate.

On the other hand, people around the world think that India should double the tax/duty on personal transport and promote mass transport systems.

Wow, I would love mass transport system. but then are they proper and always in good condition? Are they comfortable enough that when you come of of public transport steel body, you are as fresh as you are after ridng motorcycle/or coming off your car ?

Most countries have very effecient public transport system. There the useless nuiscanse are not there. This includes Japan and Singapore.

Rising fuel costs is a worldwide problem. How much does petrol cost in the UK? I believe its more expensive that India. They also have an absurd congestion charge. Parking costs a bomb in most cities in the developed world. I believe Canadian fuel prices are similar to those in India.

I think what you are really angry about is corruption. We pay so much in taxes and yet some of us arent able to really enjoy the benefits of it. Does Mumbai deserve the kind of roads it has inspite of having so many people paying so much in taxes? NO!! Do we deserve a crap airport that makes the worst first impression on foreign tourists? NO!!

Then why are you not comparing India with China or Japan. We have similar space problem. We have or Japan has even weak currency than RS.
Canada has better roads. Canada has more disciplined drives. Canadians use large engined vehicles. Here its very difficult for and average indian to even afford 1.6ltr engine. Canaidans go for 2.4 and above capacity engines. So eventually Canadians get better cars and roads and GOOD QUALITY OF FUEL after paying for fuel.
We pay similar for fuel as Canadians, but what are we getting ...?

[khanak]

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

Wow, I would love mass transport system. but then are they proper and always in good condition? Are they comfortable enough that when you come of of public transport steel body, you are as fresh as you are after ridng motorcycle/or coming off your car ?

Most countries have very effecient public transport system. There the useless nuiscanse are not there. This includes Japan and Singapore.

This is something we need to work on. The Delhi Metro has been extremely successful and it is being replicated in Mumbai and Bangalore. Hopefully that should solve a lot of our transport problems.

Then why are you not comparing India with China or Japan. We have similar space problem. We have or Japan has even weak currency than RS.
Canada has better roads. Canada has more disciplined drives. Canadians use large engined vehicles. Here its very difficult for and average indian to even afford 1.6ltr engine. Canaidans go for 2.4 and above capacity engines. So eventually Canadians get better cars and roads and GOOD QUALITY OF FUEL after paying for fuel.
We pay similar for fuel as Canadians, but what are we getting ...?

A stronger currency does not necessarily mean a stronger economy. Japan has tried to devalue its currency so that it can pay back foreign loans and make its exports more competitively priced. How come the US is so much stronger than the UK in terms of its economy but the pound is still worth more than a dollar?

However we do need to work on a tonne of things like I mentioned in my previous post. We do need to get better roads, better airports, better stations, better public transport and everything else that we need. Afterall we are paying for it and we deserve it.

A lot is changing in the west. More and more people now prefer fuel efficient cars. People with big trucks with huge engines in them are having to pay through their nose for these things and a lot of them arent happy with it. Fuel prices are going up almost everyday and IMO the only answer to this is alternative fuels.

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by khanak

This is something we need to work on. The Delhi Metro has been extremely successful and it is being replicated in Mumbai and Bangalore. Hopefully that should solve a lot of our transport problems.



A stronger currency does not necessarily mean a stronger economy. Japan has tried to devalue its currency so that it can pay back foreign loans and make its exports more competitively priced. How come the US is so much stronger than the UK in terms of its economy but the pound is still worth more than a dollar?

However we do need to work on a tonne of things like I mentioned in my previous post. We do need to get better roads, better airports, better stations, better public transport and everything else that we need. Afterall we are paying for it and we deserve it.

A lot is changing in the west. More and more people now prefer fuel efficient cars. People with big trucks with huge engines in them are having to pay through their nose for these things and a lot of them arent happy with it. Fuel prices are going up almost everyday and IMO the only answer to this is alternative fuels.

Well, Delhi metro is very successfull, but then we must implememnt this at a extremely rapid pace. Implememnting in Mumabi and Banglore is simply not sufficient. Implementing in 13 major cities also wont help. We must implement it in almost all cities. Vadodara although a samll city needs it immediately. Actually it should have been here by now. Japan after 1945 disaster has done so much. Japan is more prone to earthquakes than india. Still it has wider netwrok of rails and other public transport. China was the first to implement MAGLEV, and it is really worth it.

Before 10 years it was said that India will continue to grow faster than China. Well India is doing nothing. We should have been using metro all over the country by now.

Regarding the west, well yes things are changing. People are leaving their unaerodynamic trucks and going for better smaller and more fuel effecient vehicles. A man using 4ltr V* wont go for Pruis or Verna or Corolla. He will go in for V6 Altima, Accord or Camry or may be Malibu. They are still buying V6 and V8 and large four cylinders. The sales of Accord, Camry , Altima and Malibua are rising along with Corolla and Civic,etc. So they are just going towards more aerodynamic and fuel effecient cars. Not for tiny cars. Camry is the largest selling car in US with huge sales. here is Alto.
2.4lts Vs 0.8.
Well an Avegarge American is getting 3 times the capacity and is using it.

Regarding Western Europe: The things are changing for sure, but they were never hungry for Trucks. They are still buying bigger cars with bigger engines.


And everywhere except Afghanistan/Pakistan and other such countries, the cost of fuel is not as much as India. West gets better quality of fuel and has very strict emession norms. They can afford to go for affordable diesels because fuel quality is much better.

We are taking the burden and beating almost at every good aspect.

[flyingspur]

Everything gets pocketed. And thats the thing that brings despair to our types i.e. jesal, aaggoswami. And when we decide to post, on a free and open forum, our feelings about the duty on car imports, citing examples from other countries, we get patriotic replies saying duties should be increased to 200%. With almost nothing to justify it except "my country, my rupee, my Nano, my Metro". We are patriotic Indians as well, atleast I am. But there's no harm in expressing our desire to get - not more than whats being provided in other countries for the same amount of money - but atleast comparable to it. Cultures, currencies etc should not have been brought into the picture in the first place. Something as simple as import duties has been so dramatically twisted into a tale of Mera Bharat Mahaan. Get over it !!

[aravindwarrier]

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

Out of 50 Rs. we pay for each ltr of fuel, 35 rs. go to government. IOC and other companies show that they are losing money. Well we know most of the money is lost in corruption.
Hold it buddy, dont Generalize just like that.

I can easily prove it.
If things were so bad (that any body can come and prove) dont you think that all PSU employees would be behind the bars now?

India get crude at aroun $ 110/ barrel. I think that is Rs 4400 / 220 lts. So that is Rs. 20 per lts. It is sold here at 50 rs after refining ( that has the worst quailty of fuel avaliable ) at Rs 10/ltr loss. So lets say Rs 60 is the cost.
Now if the government taxation is reduced, we would be paying Rs 17 instead of Rs 35/ltr of tax. So teh cost of petrol will be 60-17 - 43 and now IOC and other government companies will be making Rs. 7 per ltr!
Thank you for the wonderful insight.I dont have much more to say without this making this a battlefield.

First there was a choksi thread which went OT and gave birth to this thread, and at this rate this also is going to drift away.Guys pls be more considerate and do your research before posting (At least in cases when it could be derogatory statements to some)

[flyingspur]

Till now all my posts have been about trying to get things back on focus. Enough of this now. (Patriotic ones, call me a quitter/deserter if you will). Please carry on this "debate". Will rejoin when relevant points, not clouded by unrelated issues being mixed up, are put forward.

[Nikhilb2008]

Forget lower end cars. Maybe we needed some idiotic protectionist policy to encourage our manufacturers who were behind thanks to our delayed independance.

Khanak, please tell what is the bloody point of having huuge amounts of taxes for cars like the BMWs, Mercs, etc when they have NO Indian rivals ? It is idiotic isnt it ?

[khanak]

Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008

Forget lower end cars. Maybe we needed some idiotic protectionist policy to encourage our manufacturers who were behind thanks to our delayed independance.

Khanak, please tell what is the bloody point of having huuge amounts of taxes for cars like the BMWs, Mercs, etc when they have NO Indian rivals ? It is idiotic isnt it ?

The S Class is assembled in India isnt it? What would happen to an Indian made Civic if you could buy a 3 Series for 15 lakhs?