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Old 29th April 2008, 09:52   #76
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
The basis of comparison is flawed. You earn in dollars and you spend in dollars.... Simple! Now if Indian government wants us to believe that we are paying less for everything we get compared to the developed world... please pay us in dollars and we will spend the same for commodities as well. On second thoughts... how many times do you need to get your car washed in toronto as compared to India? I am sure it will work out cheaper in toronto still. :P
Request to mods: Please dont close this thread.
If the discussion has to continue... It shall. Only i'm busy with work during day time and will post a detailed reply in the night. For now,I suggest you to reconsider your basis of comparison.You are still not appreciating the concept of Purchase parity.You have to covert apples to equivalent orange terms before actually comparing apples to oranges.Other wise its easy to reach a conclusion like this.

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Old 29th April 2008, 10:45   #77
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And before you tell me "Look you have a washing machine which 90% of India does not", I would like to tell you "Sorry, not my fault"
I wanted to avoid saying this, expecting every single one to misunderstand such a statement. But I'm glad someone did. I completely second that statement, tsk1979. Thank you. We are paying our taxes, we have our priorities as well. We're paying taxes so that the ones in power will do the needful and facilitate the upliftment of our country as a whole, using those taxes. Beyond that, I give a damn if people still blame me of not doing anything for my country and cribbing away. I want my roads, and I want my cars at a fair price without being ripped off everytime I go to buy a new car. It's not extravagance. Call it bang for the buck if you will, but it's only in India that it's seen as getting a bang for your buck. Everywhere else it's the basics.

PS : I see a third thread emerging out of this. Mods, please keep track of this thread. It's getting a bit flammable dont you think :-)

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Old 29th April 2008, 11:01   #78
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YAWN, biggest problem of this country, everyone automatically brings in the poor for no reason, same like politicians do, sad thread close it. india great india this in its dreams only. countrys gone to dogs or is close to, open your eyes and see it soon better for yourself.
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Old 29th April 2008, 11:34   #79
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...biggest problem of this country, everyone automatically brings in the poor for no reason, same like politicians do...
True. I wonder what they had to do with car import duties.
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Old 29th April 2008, 11:53   #80
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True. I wonder what they had to do with car import duties.
its always the case, things will never change and this is proof of that.
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Old 29th April 2008, 13:27   #81
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I don't undestand why a discussion cannout be had without someone bringing in patriotism. Its in NOT UNPATRIOTIC to talk about problems. Really this always derails discussions.

If you want to solve problems you have to identify them first and that's not going to happen if you push it under the carpet and get all defensive as if someone is attacking you.

Pride will not make India successful and I don't understand this constant need to feel proud and patriotic. Self awareness as a country and as individuals is essential for a healthy perspective. Benchmark against the best to see where we are lacking and what can be done to get there.
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Old 29th April 2008, 13:41   #82
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If our economy was open to imports and free competition, do you really think we would have Tata, Mahindra or Reva? Nope, they would all be killed by competition from manufacturers that were making cars for years before these companies. To be honest, I am happy with the 100% duty. Those who really want tthe car can afford it and can get a car in legally. Those who can't have to consume local products. Makes sense to me.
What is the benefit of having nurtured these manufacturers? Getting a bug ridden vehicle even in 2008? Remember the classic case of BAL? Made only scooters until the opening up of the market made BAL make the awsome pulsar and today, they are India's best bike makers.

I agree for protectionism against free import of 2nd hand cars, but new imports must be allowed without duty. After all Tata is not manufacturing a porche nor BAL a Ducati.
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Old 29th April 2008, 14:00   #83
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I agree with every single word you said.

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So? Whats the point. Do a govt job and get 1/4th the money? ITs a free market. Everybody will work where there is a better salary/standard of living.
Your entire arguments was more or less sane, except for such irrelevant bits.

JAI HIND India is a great country. Anybody criticizing India is bad. Its the best country in the whole world.
Thats the tune we should sing right?
Well thats the reason why most of India sits in the dark ages. If you compare this country to others, or say how others have a better life, you are a traitor, or a noveau rich who does not understand ground realities, or plain ignorant.
And why should I blame myself. I contribute enough to this country, and take back very little.
MY compatriots in other countries take back much more in terms of healthcare roads infrastructure etc.,
I pay money to this country in terms of taxes, direct and indirect.
That GPRS you talk about, well I pay for that too, and pay service tax on my bill.
The mobile I bought had taxes attached to the bill.
The car I own as 10% tax paid.
The salary I earn I pay tax on that too,
What am I getting in return. All this 2kg rice thingy is okay, and makes good arguments at PAGE 3 parties, and all this talk about "Anybody Poor is untouchable blah blah" is good to embaress the middle class, but in the end it comes down to the very basics for me.
I pay money, what do I get in return.
JAI HIND will not refund the 1500rs I spent on my washing machine because the voltage spiked to 300V.
And before you tell me "Look you have a washing machine which 90% of India does not", I would like to tell you "Sorry, not my fault".
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Old 29th April 2008, 14:03   #84
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I went through all the posts so far and am happy to see that there is genuine concern for this country and its future. Good work out guys! I see that some are agreeing that India is progressing and some disagreeing to that. I feel that in fact both are correct in a way that is why the argument goes on..
We have progressed only a little in terms of basic human development indices's like good potable water, food, sanitation, poverty level, general education, health care and accessibility of connectivity of villages to end consumer markets (cities) which is the point of argument of those arguing the bad state of our country. The people of a country will always get the government they deserve, so nobody is to blame. Now lets go have beer. cheers:
Well put Zaks, however things are not so bleak. We are a huge country, with a large/make that largest population, extreme poverty and to top it all, a very young democracy and a nation, only about 60+ years into existance. If you look at our report card for the past 6 decades, I see we have come a long way and have collectively performed superbly. From a depleted nth world country in 1947, to an emerging super power , a BRIC nation whom the entire world wants to court, is a big big leap.

We still have a long way to turn into a first would nation, which we will, may be in the next 30-50 years. As we speak roads are improving, more people are flying, more jobs getting created, more people (you and I) are thinking passionately about our country. In the rural areas several folks have set up micro credit facilities, more villages are getting basic facilities and things are generally improving. Compare ourselves with Bangladesh or Pakistan and see where we stand!!!.

Protectionism was the start point for this thread, and I believe lets protect our industry where its needed, and not under the guise of socialistic equality. In case of automobiles we must not allow India to be a dumping ground of 2nd hand cars, however preventing world class vehicles coming to India, under the guise of protecting existing car manufacturers is plain old b*** s***


To end my post, lets look at physics, the force required to overcome a body at rest (inertia) is greatest and is directly proportional to its mass. Once the body is in motion, the very mass itself helps in the body moving along smoothly. India has the mass (people, resources), and now that we have overcome inertia and are moving, the future is easier.
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Old 29th April 2008, 14:08   #85
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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
Good debate.

On the other hand, people around the world think that India should double the tax/duty on personal transport and promote mass transport systems.
ROTFL. Public what? Does India have a public 'transport'????????? Or is the world assuming we all leave our cars and use the 6 seater dukkar to travel to office each day.

I want the rest of the world to travel for a month in a Mumbai local train at peak hours, before making any kind of statements
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Old 29th April 2008, 14:10   #86
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its always the case, things will never change and this is proof of that.
Jesal its a fact. We are still a country of poor people and till something is done about it, we are not going to change and thats exactly what politicians want. Where will they get their votes from if everyone's educated and has a minimum level of living standard, the expectations will rise and their vested interest will take a hit.
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Old 29th April 2008, 14:14   #87
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LOL.... I triggered it

and look where its gone....

It just exposes us!... all the hypocrisy in this country!

Admit it!... we stand no where!... and that is b'coz of over-protective attitude and egoistic pride.

India's just scared of foreign companies (East India Company rings a bell?).... they were so scared, that for 40 years after independence.... nothing was allowed!

We got to understand when Pepsico makes pepsi... there's nothing TATA can do about that!

I wonder why do we Import the Intel processors.... let intex make it!

To me... this duty on CARS is not just about protecting industry!.... its more than that... its a luxury tax! (wonder whom are they protecting if there is no industry for high end automobiles!!!)
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Old 29th April 2008, 14:24   #88
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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Well put Zaks, however things are not so bleak. We are a huge country, with a large/make that largest population, extreme poverty and to top it all, a very young democracy and a nation, only about 60+ years into existance. If you look at our report card for the past 6 decades, I see we have come a long way and have collectively performed superbly. From a depleted nth world country in 1947, to an emerging super power , a BRIC nation whom the entire world wants to court, is a big big leap.
Nicely put Apache but the problem is that we have progressed only a little in terms of basic human development indices's which is what bother me. And if someone living in Delhi the capital of India has to face that, I shudder to think of the situation in remote parts of the country. We might be driving fancy cars, buying luxury good but as a human race we are going from bad to worse. As Zak put it "Morally corrupt people in their ideals"

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
We still have a long way to turn into a first would nation, which we will, may be in the next 30-50 years. As we speak roads are improving, more people are flying, more jobs getting created, more people (you and I) are thinking passionately about our country. In the rural areas several folks have set up micro credit facilities, more villages are getting basic facilities and things are generally improving. Compare ourselves with Bangladesh or Pakistan and see where we stand!!!.
And why do we have to compares ourselves with Pakistan or bangaldesh. With the kind of talent, resource pool and IQ we have, we should be ahead of China even.

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Protectionism was the start point for this thread, and I believe lets protect our industry where its needed, and not under the guise of socialistic equality. In case of automobiles we must not allow India to be a dumping ground of 2nd hand cars, however preventing world class vehicles coming to India, under the guise of protecting existing car manufacturers is plain old b*** s***
Instead of protecting our industry by making it difficult for the outsiders to enter, why not reduce the taxes and let it be a fair play, a level playing field.

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
To end my post, lets look at physics, the force required to overcome a body at rest (inertia) is greatest and is directly proportional to its mass. Once the body is in motion, the very mass itself helps in the body moving along smoothly. India has the mass (people, resources), and now that we have overcome inertia and are moving, the future is easier.
Amen to that
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Old 29th April 2008, 15:01   #89
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[COLOR=black]This thread turned out so interesting, I felt compelled to reply. I do not claim that I am saying anything completely new. However, I would try to reiterate some of the points already put forward by the members:[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]India[/COLOR][COLOR=black] is in a transition phase, and the focus is to move from a socialist economy to a capitalist one. In our day to day lives, we experience the capitalist forces at work (so, for instance, I am typing this reply on my laptop). This capitalist force, however, generates disparity (of income, living standards etc.) in the society, especially because the people in the system (the country) are in a better position to both benefit from the force, and add to it. That would be people like you and me.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]On the other hand, there is a parallel force, which is trying to spread the rewards of the capitalist force to more and more people, even they are not directly in a position to benefit from capitalism, or to add force to it.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]In the current situation, the government has two choices:[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]Choice 1: Take measures that would help the capitalist force become very strong as soon as possible, and then hope the economy would spread the benefits around at its own pace.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]Choice 2: Work on creating a capitalist environment, but also have a socialist agenda to reduce the time it would take the benefits of capitalism reaching the underprivileged (those who could not directly reap the benefits of capitalism).[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]Our country is following choice#2.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]Choice # 2 is very difficult to balance out. One of the effects that has been discussed at length here is that it creates severe disparities in taxation (so we have Accords selling at Rs. 16 lakh, fuel at Rs. 48 per liter). Nevertheless, this taxation is spreading the money around the whole country. The challenge is in making choices like:[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]a. [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black]Is it more beneficial (to the economy in general) to keep a high fuel price, and use the funds to finance irrigation in remote areas, or should the fuel prices be kept low so that all consumers benefit. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]b. [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black]Should all cars be taxed heavily (“car is a luxury”), or should the taxes be kept low (“car is one of the basic items needed for progress”)[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]In both the examples above, the struggle is between the capitalist and socialist forces. When we see Accords at Rs. 16 lakh it is, in essence, this very argument. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]It is quite clear, however, that the overall balance which the government has achieved is good (we have 9% economy growth and ‘inclusive growth’ as the next 5 year plan agenda at the same time). And this is made possible through a large number of choices that we have made (think high price petrol v/s low price phone call rates etc. etc.). [/COLOR]


[COLOR=black]Of course, there are two solid criticisms, which can be partly refuted:[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]a. [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black]Much of the money collected through taxes is being is being embezzled by corrupt politicians [/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings]à[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black] Agreed 100% that corruption needs to be weeded out, but high taxes allows the government to give gram pradhans Rs. 10 lakh budgets, 70% of which would be embezzeled, rather than face a situation, where the government has funds only to give Rs. 1 lakh to every gram pradhan.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]b. [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black]Some sectors are bearing the brunt of excessive taxation (eg. cars) [/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Wingdings][FONT=Wingdings]à[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black] True, but the government is *trying* to balance it out there as well. So we have lesser taxes for cars under 4000mm, which are more in line with serving the transport need, rather than the want for luxury.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]My whole point is that although it pains me that I cannot buy a Honda Accord, and have to take into account the (huge, in PPP terms) fuel costs when going on a holiday, each of us need to look at the problem at a holistic level. It would not make any of our lives easier, but would just cool us down a little.[/COLOR]

Last edited by GTO : 29th April 2008 at 15:20.
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Old 29th April 2008, 18:08   #90
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Protecting the domestic industy is fair enough but for how long and for what? Whats the point of a domestic industry which still gives us inferiors products at cost far greater than foreign products which are infinitely better overall.... will the cosumer right be ever taken care off? This is exactly why we have concentrated wealth and nowhere else in the world do we have such huge disparity in social status and incomes.

Request to mods: Please dont close this thread.
I think Iv said this about a 100 times now.

The Indian market is no longer protected. Any company can enter the Indian market if they want.
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