Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 4th May 2008, 21:56   #31
BHPian
 
adityamunshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Baroda
Posts: 771
Thanked: 6 Times
Default

In our country, even a set of four wheels provides a false sense of security. You dont need technologies like ESP or ABS/EDB to do that.
adityamunshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th May 2008, 23:48   #32
Senior - BHPian
 
aaggoswami's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vadodara
Posts: 4,675
Thanked: 1,427 Times
Default Yes it does help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangsta View Post
Sorry for the accident mate. ABS do increase braking distance in wet and sandy roads but you can steer the car if you have ABS. I remember my wagon R was abt to hit a van on lodhi road. Few weeks back there was patch on that lodhi road in delhi a good 2 mtr patch road had been pilled off and all the sediments were in the area 1 mtr by 2 mtr and there were 3-4 patches were there. A Maruti Van Guy idiot applied brakes his car got skid and was abt to loose balance and nobody was there infront of him still that fool applied brakes. Me too try to stop my car but thankfully and i don't know how my wagon R hadnt hit the van just because i applied brakes on that thick sandy patch and almost lost the control and after 3-4 days same thing happened when i was there in my Accent. But i was confident abt the ABS So i increased the speed and as soon i increased the speed a biker was abt to loose control on the same patch. Thank God, I applied Emergency Brakes and steered my car with full control to the left.
Thats the difference.
But yes, Accidents occurs due to other's mistakes too. But Its all abt increasing safety limitations in a car.
I really don't know how many times ABS really saved my car.
Last night only ABS saved me from an accident as the idiot truck driver took his truck infront of me suddenly. I had written abt it on Expressway to Hell thread.
Best results comes when all of them compliments each other, i really love my elantra for this.
ABS + EBD + TCS + BAS + All Wheel Disc Very Very useful on highway driving.

ESP will help in handling the car in emergency situations.

Yes there are no doubts that the features like ESP will really help in emergency situtaions. The question is that if an idiot ( the sort of drives you have mentioned, they put thier own safety at risk along with others ) knows that his car/ four wheeler has ESP he will push the car beyond limitations of his own and also the machine.

This is my point.

Quote:
In our country, even a set of four wheels provides a false sense of security. You dont need technologies like ESP or ABS/EDB to do that.
@ adityamunshi:
Yes, yes you are correct. And that is why there is chaos.
aaggoswami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th May 2008, 15:03   #33
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,748
Thanked: 89,370 Times
Default

Quote:
The point is clear. If we had these features like TCS and ESP fitted on each and every car from Nano to the highest end, then the number of accidents will only increase because these features gives a sense of security to the driver and in our country, we have a large number of drivers with inexperience and negligence. So instead of something happening positive, just negative thing will happen.
Gimme a break man! No one started driving faster after seat belts became mandatory. Traction control or ABS do NOT offer you absolute control or grip level in all circumstances....they merely *reduce* the chances of an accident and (importantly) are not fool-proof.
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2008, 08:01   #34
BHPian
 
Gangsta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 622
Thanked: Once
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Yes there are no doubts that the features like ESP will really help in emergency situtaions. The question is that if an idiot ( the sort of drives you have mentioned, they put thier own safety at risk along with others ) knows that his car/ four wheeler has ESP he will push the car beyond limitations of his own and also the machine.

This is my point.



@ adityamunshi:
Yes, yes you are correct. And that is why there is chaos.
Idiots still push their cars beyond limits without any securities. In Delhi, You must had seen Races going on in bet. the traffic. lol that's foolishness. People race with their Santros, Swifts etc. They don't have TCS or ESP sort of thing still they take their cars beyond the limits risking other's life on the road. We can find Idiots anywhere in the world. I have Wagon R, Accent and Elantra. I drive my Elantra and Accent without any fear. No doubt about. Still most of the time i keep distance of atleast 10 feet from the front vehicle. I know 10 feet distance is a lot in the city driving and also when you are driving the car with one of the best brakes combo. But when i see a good stretch to overtake I just do it and again apply brakes and i still maintain that atleast 10 feet difference. But my Wagon R... I'm not that much confident of driving it. Because of the brakes and stability. So, i don't drive it more than 50-60 kmph and i avoid driving it as i have a habit of driving elantra and accent with abs i.e with good brakes and i know the car will be in control.



Cabbies in Delhi just drive like a fool even though they don't have such good handling features. They are the perfect example for it.

Last edited by Gangsta : 6th May 2008 at 08:07.
Gangsta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2008, 08:16   #35
BHPian
 
Gangsta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 622
Thanked: Once
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Gimme a break man! No one started driving faster after seat belts became mandatory. Traction control or ABS do NOT offer you absolute control or grip level in all circumstances....they merely *reduce* the chances of an accident and (importantly) are not fool-proof.
Yup you are right about TCS or ABS don't give us full control. People still oversteer the cars with TCS or ABS at high speeds results in the accidents.

But i use ABS a lot on highways as i have a habit to stretch the car on highways with high speeds. But still i keep good 20-30 feet difference and atleast 5 feet difference sideways while overtaking the car because i know i'm driving fast and other drivers may need space while i'm overtaking.

If i have to go extreme left or right and i saw good stretch to overtake, then i use my ABS thingy to steer it. I know sometimes doing it. But i know driving dynamics of both of my cars and ofcourse the limitations. If i'm not confident of doing it then i avoid doing it.

If i don't have ABS in my car i would had been doing normal highway driving.

So, I partialy agree with his point that it can reduce the sense of fear for accidents, and partialy agree with your point too because seat belts have nothing to do with the stability and control of the car.
Gangsta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2008, 08:26   #36
Senior - BHPian
 
aaggoswami's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vadodara
Posts: 4,675
Thanked: 1,427 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Gimme a break man! No one started driving faster after seat belts became mandatory. Traction control or ABS do NOT offer you absolute control or grip level in all circumstances....they merely *reduce* the chances of an accident and (importantly) are not fool-proof.
But then how many people really wear seatbelts?? If a cop is in sight, then they surely will wear and as soon as that spot is gone, off goes that thing.

In case of TCS and ESP, ( not ABS + EBD ) it surely will give them a feeling that if someone attacks the corner with somewhat higher than normal speed, then nothing happens.
When given in the hands of genius ( read idiots ) he will definatly go beyond that limit and no wonder will end up in an accident.

ABS is really important and should be made mandatory on all cars and two wheelers. It helps in keeping the vehicle in control as the wheels wont lock during heavy braking.

TCS and ESP, if implemented will just increase trouble IMO.
aaggoswami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2008, 09:07   #37
BHPian
 
Gangsta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 622
Thanked: Once
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
But then how many people really wear seatbelts?? If a cop is in sight, then they surely will wear and as soon as that spot is gone, off goes that thing.

In case of TCS and ESP, ( not ABS + EBD ) it surely will give them a feeling that if someone attacks the corner with somewhat higher than normal speed, then nothing happens.
When given in the hands of genius ( read idiots ) he will definatly go beyond that limit and no wonder will end up in an accident.

ABS is really important and should be made mandatory on all cars and two wheelers. It helps in keeping the vehicle in control as the wheels wont lock during heavy braking.

TCS and ESP, if implemented will just increase trouble IMO.
If given in wrong hands it can surely leads to trouble. Man TCS really really helps in getting awesome grip. I have to think twice steering my accent on highways at good speeds. But on Elantra? TCS helps me a lot It's just the limitations of steering the car increases if we have TCS in our car.

But if in wrong hands (means who don't know the limitations of the stability of the car and TCS in the car) it will surely rise up the chances for the accidents.

But have ya thought of this?
If we have ESP in our cars then what about the price? It will be high.

Janta saves money even on power windows.
Not many of them will sell.

I remember, when Accent came in the past with ABS and with 1.6L engine. GLS or GTX. I think it was 1 lakh costlier. I'm not sure, but it was around this much. How many 1.6L with ABS accents you can see on the roads if compared to 1.5L accents? in 2002-2003 in C-Segments i think only Accent had ABS (Correct me if i'm wrong). Not many people bought it because they don't want ABS and a DOHC engine block and most of them didnt even knew what was ABS or a DOHC or something like that. All they knew that 1.6L ABS is the top end model. Why to spend 80k-90k on it?

Its going to happen the same with Nano and other cars.
Nano - around 1 lakh ex-showroom right?
Nano with ABS - Add atleast 30k to it.
Nano with TCS - 30k More
Nano with EBD - 20k More.
now we have a 2 lakh tata car.
Who will buy it?
Instead people will buy M800 or Alto instead of Nano because they trust maruti suzuki more than tata and ofcourse they will say, what's the use of it.
Everybody drives the car without these features. haha
Correct me if i'm wrong.

Not many people will buy cars with TCS. Take an Example of Elantra which hyundai had to phase out...
What abt the features and price of Elantra?
Engine: CRDi Engine (A Powerful One)
Stability, Security and other Features:
ABS + EBD + BAS + TCS + 2 AirBags + all wheel disc + Auto Climate Control + Spacioius + Good Stability + Good mileage + Solid Built.
Hyundai as very good A.S.S
Till date faced no problem in the car and very happy and enjoy the ride.

Price: Rs 877020 ex-showroom. So cheap, if equipped with such features. But people prefered buying Skodas, Civics, Corollas which none of them have such features but they have a brand name.

People here don't care much of security features, janta know what is air bag... how many of them know about TCS? haha

That's for sure they wont buy cars with TCS lol
Gangsta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2008, 18:25   #38
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,748
Thanked: 89,370 Times
Default

Quote:

But then how many people really wear seatbelts?? If a cop is in sight, then they surely will wear and as soon as that spot is gone, off goes that thing.
In the last decade, I have noticed a quantum increase in the number of people who buckle up, even when cops aren't around. The awareness level and concern for safety is significantly higher today.

Quote:
In case of TCS and ESP, ( not ABS + EBD ) it surely will give them a feeling that if someone attacks the corner with somewhat higher than normal speed, then nothing happens.
When given in the hands of genius ( read idiots ) he will definatly go beyond that limit and no wonder will end up in an accident.
Again, to say that the average Indigo / Corolla driver will attack a corner faster (and crash) just because of traction control couldn't be farther from the truth. If anything, it may help in avoiding the disastrous accidents that the idiot would otherwise be involved in, without these electronic aids. Sure, your assumption may apply to 1 out of a 100 drivers.....but my thought process is inclined toward the other 99 who will be safer on the roads.

Thats like saying better brakes, grippier tyres and airbags will make morons out of everyone on the road.

Quote:
ABS is really important and should be made mandatory on all cars and two wheelers. It helps in keeping the vehicle in control as the wheels wont lock during heavy braking.
Your previous argument can be applied to ABS too i.e. it could make the "idiots" drive harder and brake later, causing more accidents. How come you welcome ABS?

TCS & ABS will become mandatory one day...it is a matter of "when" rather than "if". And they will save lives.
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2008, 19:34   #39
Senior - BHPian
 
aaggoswami's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vadodara
Posts: 4,675
Thanked: 1,427 Times
Default I would explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
In the last decade, I have noticed a quantum increase in the number of people who buckle up, even when cops aren't around. The awareness level and concern for safety is significantly higher today.



Again, to say that the average Indigo / Corolla driver will attack a corner faster (and crash) just because of traction control couldn't be farther from the truth. If anything, it may help in avoiding the disastrous accidents that the idiot would otherwise be involved in, without these electronic aids. Sure, your assumption may apply to 1 out of a 100 drivers.....but my thought process is inclined toward the other 99 who will be safer on the roads.

Thats like saying better brakes, grippier tyres and airbags will make morons out of everyone on the road.



Your previous argument can be applied to ABS too i.e. it could make the "idiots" drive harder and brake later, causing more accidents. How come you welcome ABS?

TCS & ABS will become mandatory one day...it is a matter of "when" rather than "if". And they will save lives.

ABS will help good disciplined drives control their vehicles when suddenly any mad person comes out of anywhere. ABS is an absolute necessacity rather than want or luxury.
But in case of ESP and TCS, its like luxury that will give overconfidence. ABS will also do the same but only in emergency or hard braking, where as ESP/TCS will give overconfidence everywhere.

My intention is that ESP/TCS is not the thing that we indians need in our cars. In case if someone is really disciplined driver, he/she wont even require ESP/TCS because he/she is aware of the car's and his/her own limit. But then they( disciplined drivers ) willl require ABS as there are unpredictable people on the road. We here dont have the power in our vehicles that we would necessaciate TCS, nor do we have roads where you REALLY need ESP. If one is sensible, ESP/TCS are not the need.
But in case of ABS, well, we have too much unpredectability and some people who are not aware of the common sense, so we NEED ABS.

I hope that I am able to make at least some sense now.
aaggoswami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2008, 20:45   #40
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 156
Thanked: 7 Times
Default

There were days when disk brakes up front was a luxury but now try driving a car with all drums. What you are doing is, drawing a line is practicality of inctroducing and ESP in our cars. ABS is still a costly option in our country, more than 90% of people on road do not have it(yeah even for cars costing more than 10L). So, it is the next most practical advancement from introducing seat belts for all cars(with pretensiones). Equally important is atleast driver and passenger air bags.

TCS and ESP cannot do anything that those technologies can do. The necesscity for ABS is more than for TCS, but we would not do bad if we had one, or atleast the option of buying one. As said by one of those video's its the price introduction factor is not as high as ABS.

But because of air brakes, i guess it is easier to introduce ABS + EBD + TCS in trucks and busses. A roll over protection saves a lot of lives. Not only for those truck but also for others using the road.
arunmur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2008, 22:38   #41
Senior - BHPian
 
aaggoswami's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Vadodara
Posts: 4,675
Thanked: 1,427 Times
Default Good, but not the solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunmur View Post
There were days when disk brakes up front was a luxury but now try driving a car with all drums. What you are doing is, drawing a line is practicality of inctroducing and ESP in our cars. ABS is still a costly option in our country, more than 90% of people on road do not have it(yeah even for cars costing more than 10L). So, it is the next most practical advancement from introducing seat belts for all cars(with pretensiones). Equally important is atleast driver and passenger air bags.

TCS and ESP cannot do anything that those technologies can do. The necesscity for ABS is more than for TCS, but we would not do bad if we had one, or atleast the option of buying one. As said by one of those video's its the price introduction factor is not as high as ABS.

But because of air brakes, i guess it is easier to introduce ABS + EBD + TCS in trucks and busses. A roll over protection saves a lot of lives. Not only for those truck but also for others using the road.

I agree with you that ABS along with driver and passenger air bags are now what we need. But remember that airbags will prove very deadly if the passengers are not wearing seat belts. Equally dangerous is the scenario where the rear passengers dont wear seatbelts and the front one is wearing and the airbags come into action. Rear passengers not wearing seatbelts is probably more dangerous.

TCS would be fine, but now, ESP is the norm, and it can be introduced as an option. But the need is of ABS and not ESP. We really dont have those V6 or V8 neither do we have roads that allow high speed cornering that would require ESP. Yes for very powerful cars like V6 Accord, or Camry, its OK, but not for Verna/SX4 segment. Well if you know the limits of these machines ( City/Verna/SX4 segment ) you know they are not that great cornering machines and their dynamics are further spoiled by the Indian road tuned suspension, so you know the limits. For a good driver, he does not need ESP as he is aware in which machine he is , but every one needs ABS because many, many people dont know what road is meant for( we can find this on Street Experiences thread).
aaggoswami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2008, 09:53   #42
BHPian
 
Gangsta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 622
Thanked: Once
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
I agree with you that ABS along with driver and passenger air bags are now what we need. But remember that airbags will prove very deadly if the passengers are not wearing seat belts. Equally dangerous is the scenario where the rear passengers dont wear seatbelts and the front one is wearing and the airbags come into action. Rear passengers not wearing seatbelts is probably more dangerous.

TCS would be fine, but now, ESP is the norm, and it can be introduced as an option. But the need is of ABS and not ESP. We really dont have those V6 or V8 neither do we have roads that allow high speed cornering that would require ESP. Yes for very powerful cars like V6 Accord, or Camry, its OK, but not for Verna/SX4 segment. Well if you know the limits of these machines ( City/Verna/SX4 segment ) you know they are not that great cornering machines and their dynamics are further spoiled by the Indian road tuned suspension, so you know the limits. For a good driver, he does not need ESP as he is aware in which machine he is , but every one needs ABS because many, many people dont know what road is meant for( we can find this on Street Experiences thread).
I fully agree with you mate for your airbag concept. You are right in that part.
But not in 2nd part of introducing TCS or ESP in C-Class Segment. C-Class segment can cross 150 kmph mark easily. I think all of them in India.
Talking of Verna as i had read someone done 220 kmph mark. SX4 can cross 150 kmph mark too. V6 accord auto can do around 220 kmph mark too. So, it should be there as an optional feature in such cars.

As i said in my previous post. I know the dynamics limit of all the 3 cars i own and i drive within them.
TCS in my elantra just increased the cornering dynamics if compared to Accent and i drive within that dynamics. Same with my Accent, I use my ABS a lot on normal Roads for cornering my car on highways because i know accent's dynamics while using ABS at high speeds which i can't do at all in non ABS cars.
Its not like ABS are used in wet or sandy conditions. at 150 kmph + hard brakes and you can control your car and cornering can be done easily. (but for this you need to know your car's dynamics perfectly). That's what i do on highways (only on Jaipur-Delhi highways and delhi - GT Road to punjab) thats where i drive a lot. lol that's why my brake pads always changes after 10-15k km.
Single lane highways or Agra highway not good to try such things. We don't have to drive there according to our car's dynamics but we are limited to the roads conditions. Agra highway is good and smooth but its very much curvy and not that wide.

So, such things are just the addon to the car's dynamics. But Yes you are right on that part. There are some over confident idiots who don't know the driving dynamics and plays fearlessly taking the car beyond the limits.

These things wont harm till you know the dynamics of your car and you drive within that dynamics limitations.

Last edited by Gangsta : 9th May 2008 at 09:54.
Gangsta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2008, 10:05   #43
BHPian
 
Maverick_x1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 74
Thanked: 4 Times
Default It's always us.....all the time!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Gimme a break man! No one started driving faster after seat belts became mandatory. Traction control or ABS do NOT offer you absolute control or grip level in all circumstances....they merely *reduce* the chances of an accident and (importantly) are not fool-proof.
Well put @GTO! Inspite of all these features,a Moron behind the wheel ,will crash and the poor soul who's hit may not have an Airbag/ABS/ESP.

(Gives the moron another chance to Stage a comeback )

During panic/crash, let the techno gadgets take over at the best avoid a crash or at the worst cause minimum Damage!

PS : No Matter how great a Driver you are, one driving next/behind/opposite to you may not be!!!!
Maverick_x1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2008, 11:41   #44
Team-BHP Support
 
.anshuman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Good-Gaon
Posts: 7,714
Thanked: 8,997 Times
Default

The best part about ABS is while braking on slippery surfaces you can steer the car and you dont have to calculate braking pressure very complexly to avoid skids,just slam it.

The real ability of Traction Control comes out in tricky conditions like snow where excessive wheelspin is causing trouble.

Traction Control is also very reassuring around the corners when especially in our driving envoirnment where gravel,loose stuff and uneven surfaces are so common.
.anshuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2008, 14:59   #45
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: delhi
Posts: 41
Thanked: 3 Times
Default

My old car used to have electronic stability control and it saved me clearly two times. One time i was about to fish-tail into oncoming traffic on a curvy road, i dont remember the other. So I guess its good if you have stability control and its saves trauma.

My car had some sort of brake assist also, ABS/ES system used to detect any panic stop braking and put the maximum braking force so car stopped faster. I remember that kicked in many times, I dont think i was about to get in accident. Human body can not put this much braking force. My car used to stop in slightly more than 110 feet 60-0 MPH. its something like 100-0 KMPH in 40 meters.

People talk a lot about accidents but they dont realize the value of safety equipment/precautions. Because nobody remembers an accident avoided, most of the time people dont realize that they have been saved.

I found it funny that it hardly cost anything extra to add these features to ABS but still we dont have these system in most of indian cars. I was reading somwhere that it cost around 10000 to add these, though this is cost of system, final selling price may be higher.
strips007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Device that can control all my gadgets / Universal Remote Control a4_attitude Gadgets, Computers & Software 28 24th August 2011 11:10
Stability of Esteem under Panic Braking Pani Technical Stuff 18 18th December 2007 19:45
Electronic stability programme works? androdev Technical Stuff 2 16th July 2007 11:37
Stability: A height to width issue Ram Technical Stuff 38 3rd August 2006 11:50
High speed stability of NHC Floyd de Souza The Indian Car Scene 23 13th January 2006 11:36


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 18:10.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks