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Old 9th May 2008, 16:27   #46
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Originally Posted by Gangsta View Post
I fully agree with you mate for your airbag concept. You are right in that part.
But not in 2nd part of introducing TCS or ESP in C-Class Segment. C-Class segment can cross 150 kmph mark easily. I think all of them in India.
Talking of Verna as i had read someone done 220 kmph mark. SX4 can cross 150 kmph mark too. V6 accord auto can do around 220 kmph mark too. So, it should be there as an optional feature in such cars.

As i said in my previous post. I know the dynamics limit of all the 3 cars i own and i drive within them.
TCS in my elantra just increased the cornering dynamics if compared to Accent and i drive within that dynamics. Same with my Accent, I use my ABS a lot on normal Roads for cornering my car on highways because i know accent's dynamics while using ABS at high speeds which i can't do at all in non ABS cars.
Its not like ABS are used in wet or sandy conditions. at 150 kmph + hard brakes and you can control your car and cornering can be done easily. (but for this you need to know your car's dynamics perfectly). That's what i do on highways (only on Jaipur-Delhi highways and delhi - GT Road to punjab) thats where i drive a lot. lol that's why my brake pads always changes after 10-15k km.
Single lane highways or Agra highway not good to try such things. We don't have to drive there according to our car's dynamics but we are limited to the roads conditions. Agra highway is good and smooth but its very much curvy and not that wide.

So, such things are just the addon to the car's dynamics. But Yes you are right on that part. There are some over confident idiots who don't know the driving dynamics and plays fearlessly taking the car beyond the limits.

These things wont harm till you know the dynamics of your car and you drive within that dynamics limitations.
Taking SLK to corners with 100kmph is good,but then every one must know that C-segment cars can touch 170-180kmph ( present generation ), but that is not the speed to be carried into twisted roads.
And as these cars will be doing high speeds they need ABS+EBD, but not ESP. An in some tricky/high risk/accident zone situation, EBD can really help. 90% of the things will be controlled.
Addition of ESP will ofcourse really help, but the indian market need ABS+EBD not ESP.

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Originally Posted by Maverick_x1 View Post
Well put @GTO!




PS : No Matter how great a Driver you are, one driving next/behind/opposite to you may not be!!!!
Excatly, thats what I mean. If some oppsote/behind/next will not be ( mostly they are not ) sensible, i.e. already they are not sesnsible, and if they get this ESP security, they will be more senseless.

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Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
The best part about ABS is while braking on slippery surfaces you can steer the car and you dont have to calculate braking pressure very complexly to avoid skids,just slam it.

The real ability of Traction Control comes out in tricky conditions like snow where excessive wheelspin is causing trouble.

Traction Control is also very reassuring around the corners when especially in our driving envoirnment where gravel,loose stuff and uneven surfaces are so common.
I dont think that Indian cars have to conquer snow so frequently the ESP is needed.
We dont have so much power in our vehicles that we need ESP to make some sense when we encounter loose stuff, gravel and uneven surfaces, we can easily manage ourselves and if ABS/EBD is avaiable, it will help while braking. I totally agree with you in the ABS part.

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Originally Posted by strips007 View Post
People talk a lot about accidents but they dont realize the value of safety equipment/precautions. Because nobody remembers an accident avoided, most of the time people dont realize that they have been saved.

I found it funny that it hardly cost anything extra to add these features to ABS but still we dont have these system in most of indian cars. I was reading somwhere that it cost around 10000 to add these, though this is cost of system, final selling price may be higher.
Agree with you that ABS is a must and must be applied to almost all vehicles.


I believe that Accident is something that can happen no matter what you have in your or what is the badge on your car. But then there are sort of situation which could have been avoided, if not you, then by the opposite person. ABS+EBD will help reduce the chance and number of crashes and accidents.
ESP will increase the risk of both.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 9th May 2008 at 16:32.
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Old 9th May 2008, 22:35   #47
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This is available in countries like the US, where the roads are build for 120+kmph(80mph) cruising and the drivers there also drive at 130 odd. But here in India, most of roads are still designed for 60kmph and with people in it without traffic sense and potholes everywhere, its not even worth that. There are some roads, which are designed for 100kmph but you can count the number with your fingers. But even in some of the best roads, you would suddenly come up in a turn totally unexpected, with a reverse banking/no banking. You have to keep a look out for those curves and slowdown well ahead.

Saying this driving at average traffic speed, about 50 kmph will save the day, but how many do. Even if you drive slow, you risk of some one assuming that you are invisible. Drivers(/owners) in India are put their vehicles to test, the suspension taken to the extreeme, tyres taken to the extremme(even though they are thinner than international ranges), and then there are sensless drivers who thinks roads are for racing(they cannot tolerate any one overtaking them). All this with poorly enginered roads, which seems to accumalate a lot of loose gravel, water pools and suddely appearing speed brakers and centre medians in a 100kmph traffic. I don't see how they will need and we do not. I see it can reduce accident rate by 50% in the US, so what not can it do for us.

I have seen in this very forum a very many people loosing control in curves and banging the behinds of truck, somehow always misteriously parked after a curve or run off the road. I have seen some of those actions live and try not to be in any such scenarios. I have seen situations where pedastrians don't know how to cross a highway(even if they knew, they would be a hero and don't like to compramise style), and panic and run all over the road when the see a car approaching, fast. Animals also present equally big danger to our road users.

With all this i do not see why we do not need it. In fact we need it in each and every one of the above scnario's which you see every day. The ABS will not suffice, its very dangerous to brake hard in such situations as there might be a TATA Sumo/RTC bus/TRAX right behind, running to it best rpm range(with handling like a boat and brakes like a moped). This is one of the reasons why bikes are safer as you can easily steer away, but there too you need to give your chassis a break.

But as i said earlier, ABS + Airbags are more necessary than ESP/TCS. Again ESP does not cost too much above ABS(actually works on the ABS, eletro hydraulic actuators and in some cars with the throttle butterfly valve) and some Indians who wish to buy it should be allowed a chance to buy it. I wish these were promoted and people buy it as a part of their regulars like power windows/power steering/AC(would be happier if they gave it more preference though).

BTW, Any idea what happened to cheap ABS promised by Bosch?
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Old 10th May 2008, 18:20   #48
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But in case of ESP and TCS, its like luxury that will give overconfidence.
LOL! An overconfident idiot is as dangerous when taking a corner too fast, as when braking too late. Either electronic aid will be mandatory one day, and each will save more lives than cause deaths (due to the supposed overconfidence or any other reason)!
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Old 11th May 2008, 00:17   #49
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
LOL! An overconfident idiot is as dangerous when taking a corner too fast, as when braking too late. Either electronic aid will be mandatory one day, and each will save more lives than cause deaths (due to the supposed overconfidence or any other reason)!
You are correct that one day either of them or mostly both ABS+EBD and TCS/ESP will be mandatory.
My point is that we need ABS+EBD before ESP and ESP is not an immediate requirement. Just that.

ABS is mandatory in Europe.
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Old 11th May 2008, 11:32   #50
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Taking SLK to corners with 100kmph is good,but then every one must know that C-segment cars can touch 170-180kmph ( present generation ), but that is not the speed to be carried into twisted roads.
And as these cars will be doing high speeds they need ABS+EBD, but not ESP. An in some tricky/high risk/accident zone situation, EBD can really help. 90% of the things will be controlled.
Addition of ESP will ofcourse really help, but the indian market need ABS+EBD not ESP.


Excatly, thats what I mean. If some oppsote/behind/next will not be ( mostly they are not ) sensible, i.e. already they are not sesnsible, and if they get this ESP security, they will be more senseless.



I dont think that Indian cars have to conquer snow so frequently the ESP is needed.

We dont have so much power in our vehicles that we need ESP to make some sense when we encounter loose stuff, gravel and uneven surfaces, we can easily manage ourselves and if ABS/EBD is avaiable, it will help while braking. I totally agree with you in the ABS part.



Agree with you that ABS is a must and must be applied to almost all vehicles.


I believe that Accident is something that can happen no matter what you have in your or what is the badge on your car. But then there are sort of situation which could have been avoided, if not you, then by the opposite person. ABS+EBD will help reduce the chance and number of crashes and accidents.
ESP will increase the risk of both.
ESP can help the lehman to avoid oversteering the car. Many of them looses control because they oversteers the car in an emergency situations. It will avoid it most of the times. No matter if you are running 100 kmph or 200 kmph.
Why Indian cars don't needs them? Indian Cars are tortoise or what?

Yesterday i had driven Sonata with ESP but couldnt test it because it was a test car and i don't wanna do anything stupid lol on Delhi roads.

Indian cars or any other cars all over the world can loose control in the wet conditions. Where we have less visibility on the road at point of time in the rain. less visibility i.e less time to react and less time to think and limited thinking at the time of emergency. Means our car can do the trick.

I'm again saying you are right about few idiots will try to do some stupid things if they have ESP. We have Stupid Drivers all over the world and in US too where this thing is getting popular.

Last edited by Gangsta : 11th May 2008 at 11:36.
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Old 11th May 2008, 18:56   #51
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Originally Posted by Gangsta View Post
ESP can help the lehman to avoid oversteering the car. Many of them looses control because they oversteers the car in an emergency situations. It will avoid it most of the times. No matter if you are running 100 kmph or 200 kmph.
Yes, it will help and there is no doubt. But while many of them lose control because of oversteering, is that oversteering occuring because of emergency situtaion out of our control or negligence????

NOte that even if the car is with ESP, if the corners are attacked too fast or we are driving too fast on wet surface, the ESP wont be of much help.
At very high speeds, even ESP becomes useless. For eg. attacking hair pin bend at 280 kmph, no one can help.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangsta View Post
Why Indian cars don't needs them? Indian Cars are tortoise or what?
Indian cars are not tortiose, but not really powerfull.
Figure out.
Largest selling car in USA:
Toyota Camry, 166 bhp with 2.4lt I-4, 268bhp with 3.5 V6.
Largest selling car in India:
Maruti Suzuki Alto, 47bhp with 0.8ltr I-3. (64bhp 1.1 avaliable initially )

Largest selling vehicle ( till now ) in USA:
Ford F-150, avaliable with V6, V8.

Honda Civic usa: 140bhp.
India: 132.

SX4 USA: 143 bhp, India : 102.

City/Fit USA: 110 bhp, India: MOst sold 77bhp other 100bhp.

So do we really need ESP, ask again.

By no means we have tortoise cars, but we are still not upto the develped markets standards in case of power of vehicles. In europe also there are powerful I-4 and V6 being used on the roads. Not on ours.

They have to cross snow, where as we have to invade into Mini Seas in rainy season where we cannot drive fast, but then we need ABS to stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangsta View Post
Yesterday i had driven Sonata with ESP but couldnt test it because it was a test car and i don't wanna do anything stupid lol on Delhi roads.
In the first place, I appreciate the discipline you have.

Are all Delhi road used ranging from 100cc motorcycle riders to car drivers as disciplined as you are??
No they are not.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangsta View Post
Indian cars or any other cars all over the world can loose control in the wet conditions. Where we have less visibility on the road at point of time in the rain. less visibility i.e less time to react and less time to think and limited thinking at the time of emergency. Means our car can do the trick.
I think that rather than ESP, in the above mentioned situation ABS + EBD will do most of the job. ESP will be huge help though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangsta View Post
I'm again saying you are right about few idiots will try to do some stupid things if they have ESP. We have Stupid Drivers all over the world and in US too where this thing is getting popular.
Yes, everywhere the stupid drivers are there, but I think that in India they are majority and ESP will help. I have to admit this.
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Old 13th May 2008, 00:14   #52
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Yes, it will help and there is no doubt. But while many of them lose control because of oversteering, is that oversteering occuring because of emergency situtaion out of our control or negligence????
This oversteer is because of emergency situation and negligence both. As i said it is helpful for the unexperienced guys. But on the other hand you are right about this thing as in India we have many stupid drivers taking their cars beyond their controlled dynamics. I understand your point about it.
But it can happen with ABS + EBD too, one of my friend have swift with ABS, he always use to enjoy my drive on highways using full use of ABS many times on highways while cornering. He is so much over confident now by using ABS that i'm really scared to sit with him. He brakes so late i can't tell you. I was use to request him not to do such things its very dangerous. He blames me for it because i use to drive with a good confidence. But i give a good distance bet. me and the car i'm overtaking which my friend don't do it. He use to drive esteem before swift. But after having ABS Swift he drives with over confidence.



Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
NOte that even if the car is with ESP, if the corners are attacked too fast or we are driving too fast on wet surface, the ESP wont be of much help.
At very high speeds, even ESP becomes useless. For eg. attacking hair pin bend at 280 kmph, no one can help.
In India we don't have even a single highway where we can drive at 280 kmph. It is helpful cornering really hard complimented by ABS + EBD + TCS + BAS. It will be helpful driving at 100-140-150 kmph which is the max speed we can drive on highways for a longer period of time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Indian cars are not tortiose, but not really powerfull.
Figure out.
Largest selling car in USA:
Toyota Camry, 166 bhp with 2.4lt I-4, 268bhp with 3.5 V6.
Largest selling car in India:
Maruti Suzuki Alto, 47bhp with 0.8ltr I-3. (64bhp 1.1 avaliable initially )

Largest selling vehicle ( till now ) in USA:
Ford F-150, avaliable with V6, V8.

Honda Civic usa: 140bhp.
India: 132.

SX4 USA: 143 bhp, India : 102.

City/Fit USA: 110 bhp, India: MOst sold 77bhp other 100bhp.

So do we really need ESP, ask again.

By no means we have tortoise cars, but we are still not upto the develped markets standards in case of power of vehicles. In europe also there are powerful I-4 and V6 being used on the roads. Not on ours.


Have ya seen the price difference and quality bet. the cars selling in USA and India?
I'm not saying ESP should be there in all the cars.
As i said, for Indian Highways, 100-150 kmph is enough for running the car for a longer time. All the C-Segments even hatchbacks like swifts getz etc, can touch such speeds easily. ESP will helpful for such speeds too even more helpful.
Whats the use of Camry V6 or V8 on Indian Roads? They are status symbol mate. Not the performance based one.
We do have Accord V6, what are the security goodies they provide in Accord V6? ABS + EBD + Airbags? TCS (i'm not sure).
We do have big engines like superb, laura, embera, accord etc we can't run them 140-150 kmph on indian highways constantly.

Well only Sonata Embera have ESP in India. Sonata having so much of goodies going down. Elantra with so much security goodies (a real flop one in India). Means such cars in India have a status symbol and that too very few in Numbers which hyundai really lacks. So, we should talk about C-Segments and B-Segments which is a majority in India.






Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
In the first place, I appreciate the discipline you have.

Are all Delhi road used ranging from 100cc motorcycle riders to car drivers as disciplined as you are??
No they are not.
thanx for the appreciation bro. Most of the bikers in delhi are not disciplined at all. day before yesterday while i was going to hyundai plaza i saw 2 accidents at different places and that too just infront of me and in both the cases my Elantra's Brakes did a superb job saving those fools who flew on the road infront of me and my good luck i was not having any vehical behind me. I'm 100% dead sure if any nearby car behind me could had smashed me from the back. Luckily i was safe and those 2 fools too. One biker havnt seen auto running on his left and without watching on the left he just steered the bike and smashed into the auto and lost balance. 2nd stupid jumped a red light and smashed a cyclist very hard and his hand was broken.



Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
I think that rather than ESP, in the above mentioned situation ABS + EBD will do most of the job. ESP will be huge help though.

Yes, everywhere the stupid drivers are there, but I think that in India they are majority and ESP will help. I have to admit this.

Exactly.
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Old 13th May 2008, 00:16   #53
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http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/827878-post159.html

I was talking about such situations. ABS + ESP would had been avoided smashing his innova. Really sad to read this accident.
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Old 19th July 2011, 11:52   #54
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Default Shouldn't ESP be provided along with ABS?

The reason to write this topic is a show on BBC Top Gear. They were showing how these things work at a Bosch factory - namely, ABS, ESP and Traction Control (TC).

Here goes the definitions -
An anti-lock braking system (ABS, from German: Antiblockiersystem) is a safety system that allows the wheels on a motor vehicle to continue interacting tractively with the road surface as directed by driver steering inputs while braking, preventing the wheels from locking up (that is, ceasing rotation) and therefore avoiding skidding.
An ABS generally offers improved vehicle control and decreases stopping distances on dry and slippery surfaces for many drivers; however, on loose surfaces like gravel or snow-covered pavement, an ABS can significantly increase braking distance, although still improving vehicle control


Electronic stability control/Program (ESC/ESP) is a computerized technology that improves safety of a vehicle's stability by detecting and minimizing skids. When ESC detects loss of steering control, it automatically applies the brakes to help "steer" the vehicle where the driver intends to go. Braking is automatically applied to wheels individually, such as the outer front wheel to counter oversteer or the inner rear wheel to counter understeer. Some ESC systems also reduce engine power until control is regained. ESC does not improve a vehicle's cornering performance; instead, it helps to minimize the loss of control. According to Insurance Institute for Highway Safety and the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, one-third of fatal accidents could have been prevented by the technology.

I am leaving out Traction Control as it is something very different.
Now, if you read through the definitions, it is very clear that both ABS and ESP are active safety measures and reduce the chances of an accident in case of panic braking.

ABS prevents wheels from locking up, and is extremely useful no doubt.
But, in many practical scenarios, when we suddenly encounter a object on the road (say, a buffalo on the highway while cruising at 120 kmph), we need to brake and swerve. Now, while swerving, when we apply the counter steering, to get the car back on track, there is a high possibility of the rear of the car losing control and resulting in a crash. This is where ESP comes in handy and I feel it is equally important as ABS.

I sincerely hope more and more car manufacturers provide ESP along with ABS even in the sub-10 lakh bracket because ABS+ESP will reduce the chances of an accident several times more than ABS alone.

Youtube link for the BB Top gear video, a must watch:




EDIT:Mods. Please move it to the correct section, if you think so.

Last edited by adimicra : 19th July 2011 at 12:17.
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Old 19th July 2011, 12:15   #55
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Default Re: Shouldn't ESP be provided along with ABS?

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Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
....

I sincerely hope more and more car manufacturers provide ESP along with ABS even in the sub-10 lakh bracket because ABS+ESP will reduce the chances of an accident several times more than ABS alone.
Thanx for the link @admicra, explains beautifully how they help. Personally I don't think ABS is a must in Indian conditions, although ESP and TC will be more helpful. However, both ESP and TC use data from the ABS unit, so I don't think you get them without the first. Priority-wise, I think every car must be fitted with a 'Dual Rate Brake Assist' - an absolute must for the Indian traffic.

PS: Is this the correct section!!
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Old 19th July 2011, 12:28   #56
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Default Re: Shouldn't ESP be provided along with ABS?

ADMICRA, just one correction.

According to me ECS must come with ABS but the other way round might not be true. ABS can perofrm its job without the ECS also.
I might be wrong have responded based on my understanding of the sytems.
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Old 19th July 2011, 12:35   #57
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Default Re: Shouldn't ESP be provided along with ABS?

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Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
The reason to write this topic is a show on BBC Top Gear. They were showing how these things work at a Bosch factory - namely, ABS, ESP and Traction Control (TC).
Thanks for bringing up this very relevant issue . With the Indian cars upping the power quotient and our road discipline declining with every passing year , its very important that features like ABS and ESP are made standard or at least offered as options ( and TC , why not ? Monsoons, mud on the road , badly maintained slippery roads are reasons enough that we should have TC too ). Safety needs to be serious business

P.S- Here I would also like to point out that EBD is not so important IMO
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Old 19th July 2011, 12:46   #58
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Default Re: Shouldn't ESP be provided along with ABS?

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ADMICRA, just one correction.

According to me ECS must come with ABS but the other way round might not be true. ABS can perofrm its job without the ECS also.
I might be wrong have responded based on my understanding of the sytems.
You are correct. That is what I have said as well.. see below -

I sincerely hope more and more car manufacturers provide ESP along with ABS even in the sub-10 lakh bracket because ABS+ESP will reduce the chances of an accident several times more than ABS alone.

I am always talking about ESP along with ABS. ESP alone can't function without ABS. Sorry, if I was not clear.



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Originally Posted by souravc View Post
P.S- Here I would also like to point out that EBD is not so important IMO
Why do you think so? My understanding is EBD definitely helps the ABS system to funciton better and hence is very important.
Here is the definition -
Electronic brakeforce distribution (EBD or EBFD), Electronic brakeforce limitation (EBL) is an automobile brake technology that automatically varies the amount of force applied to each of a vehicle's brakes, based on road conditions, speed, loading, etc. Always coupled with anti-lock braking systems, EBD can apply more or less braking pressure to each wheel in order to maximize stopping power whilst maintaining vehicular control.[1][2] Typically, the front end carries the most weight and EBD distributes less braking pressure to the rear brakes so the rear brakes do not lock up and cause a skid.[3] In some systems, EBD distributes more braking pressure at the rear brakes during initial brake application before the effects of weight transfer become apparent.



I have seen some car manufacturers like Honda specifically mention ABS+EBD while others like Maruti/VW mentions only ABS. Even if it is not mentioned explicitly is some case, I think even those cars have some sort of EBD system for the ABS to work properly.

Traction Control is important no doubt. But, form a safety point of view, it is not as important as ABS and ESP IMO>

Note from Support: Thread merged with existing thread. Please continue the discussion here. Thanks

Last edited by .anshuman : 19th July 2011 at 15:18. Reason: See note in the post.
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Old 19th July 2011, 13:08   #59
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Red face Re: Shouldn't ESP be provided along with ABS?

@adimicra,

Thanks for bringing this imp point. Uptil now for most of the Car manufacturers in India ABS and airbags were the key selling features whereas it should have always beed ABS and ESP. Having airbags along with the above completes the safety requirements. In europe (esp in UK) ESP comes as standard in most of the cars along with ABS and airbags and it is a regulatory norm there. Traction control is sold as an addtional feature which I doubt would be of any use in Indian driving conditions.
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Old 19th July 2011, 13:14   #60
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Default Re: Shouldn't ESP be provided along with ABS?

As per my undertsanding, ABS does not need EBD to work, it can be a simple on/off gradient also. EBD is a more computing-intensive technology, as my understanding goes. Hence the cheaper ABS implementations may be able to avoid it. As long as the wheel does not lock under heavy braking the ABS can be deemed to be working properly.
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