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Old 10th May 2008, 00:20   #61
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Default Cheers!!!! Sir Behram

Hats off !!! Behram for this wonderful thread and for refreshing our memories on FIATS, PREMIERS and PREMIER AUTOMOBILES.

Yes, with a memory like this you surely are one mobile Computer (as I always told you in astonishment). Your quality experience with FIATS is unmatched for sure.

Keep it up and wish you all the BESHT for your Future FIATFULL journey.
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Old 10th May 2008, 01:23   #62
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Awesome thread Behram sir. While I do not have much to contribute to this thread. Can you guess what part this is? Should be a piece of cake for you:
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Old 10th May 2008, 22:20   #63
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The first car in my family was a Premier Padmini (MMD6101). Unfortunately, I do not remember any details. I must be around 9 -10 years old then. It was sky blue with the steering column gear shift. My parents bought it at the Kantawala Second Hand Car Mela (something like that). It was a car on which my father, my mother both actually learnt to drive, with the help of our neighbour. They used to practice on the Bandra-Kurla road which was very deserted then. I just remember its end. My father was waiting at a signal on the western expresshighway. It was pouring and a tempo rammed into the car. His brakes had failed to stop him. Thus, the cars boot was completely destroyed including the fuel tank. My father decided to sell it then and there rather than repairing it. Thus, it was replaced by a Maruti 800 (BLD3112) - Mr.Behram Dhabar would remember this car.
Some years later, I did see our Padmini. It was white colored.

Off-Topic: I still remember that our Padmini had a small chicken face tied onto its rear view mirror. It would make noise everytime the car went over a bump.
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Old 12th May 2008, 14:45   #64
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Dear Kiran (moralfibre) - of course it's a piece of cake but not eatable though (just kidding) - these are sections of the cylinder head. The drawings of any cylinder head look like this only.

FIAT - PART NUMBERING SYSTEM:
I am giving here the original FIAT part numbering system which we used for our engineering documentation etc. I believe that it is being used for today's Palio by FIAT INDIA also and is still used by FIAT worldwide.

Any original FIAT part number would be in 2 parts - the letter F followed by a 7 digit number, then a slash (/) and then a location indicator called a "matricola" in Italian (matrix in English).

A typical part number would read like this - F4095671/5.10.010
F = FIAT (S = SEAT of spain)
7 digits = part number
Matricola details were first number (5 above) would indicate as - 0 = engine, 1 = chassis, 5 = body. That means this is a body part. the next two numbers (10 above) would indicate the body group to which this part number belongs 01 = full body layout, 10 = external panels, 11 = internal panels. The last 3 numbers would indicate the breakup location, (000 would mean full assembly, 050, 100, 150 etc would lead to parts. The dimensions would be indicated accordingly. Assembly drawings would carry reference assembly dimensions only (so easy to refer). I was able to pull out any drawing within minutes (and there were no computers then).

All drawings were stored in a section known as COD (Custodians of Documents) in the R&D building in Kurla. I have seen original FIAT drawings made in 1953 (before I was born), drawn with tee squares and set squares. Even the holes made in the papers whenever a compass was used could be seen. The deawings carried complete details including toleranced dimensions as well as notes for surface finish, surface treatment etc. A typical note would read ("yellow passivation as per fiat standard 5.57405", test for salt spray as per fiat standard so-and-so), which were also available in COD for our references.

Amazing clarity, no confusion at all. A beautifully engineered product with perfect engineering documentation. I am proud to say that as an engineer, however hard I tried (and I actually tried very hard), I was not able to find a single design fault in the FIAT designs.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 13th May 2008, 12:35   #65
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Wow. Is this applicable on the replacement spareparts like cluch and pressure plate, etc ? If so this is surely going to help me a lot.

Regards,
Adheesh Parelkar
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Old 14th May 2008, 04:14   #66
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Superb thread Mr thread starter.

We had this green FIAT 1100 59 model, grew up with that around, learnt driving on that, had my first accident on it when i was 4(thats quite a thing, the car saved me)on it.
loved it, but dad gave it away one day coz of parking problems for 3 cars.Would love to get one again. Have another black 56 model.

We have this 97 118NE, 118 we call it.I absolutely cant do with another car because im so very used to it. Just cant find another car that is as comfortable to drive, comparable to it. The field of view it offers is amazing all around, I don't need a periscope to see whats right behind my rear bumper, ride is smoother than the ikon's, doesn't have a power steering but the wheel is softer than the ikon's power steering, gives 15-16 mileage, loads of cabin space, the Nissan engine is smooth and the Nissan Gearbox, is super slick the slickest among all I've driven. A lot of things that deserve a mention, these are on top of them.
An old mechanic who worked at premier's service center for for over 25 years before retiring from there helps maintaining the car, hasn't given me any problem so far.

Even today, when I've to drive w/o tension I take the 118, I can leave the driving to the subconscious mind, I feel the car is just an extension of me.
This is the 1st car in the house now, the others will change but the 118 is going to stay.
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Old 14th May 2008, 16:26   #67
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Flooded with long lost memories. Thanks Dhabhar for this wnderful thread. My first car was a Fiat(premier padmini). This car was a "second hand" car that i purchased when i got my first job(was in Pune then), year 1996. The car went straight to the paint shop and was painted a mild off white. It got sun film,full wheel caps, new steering wheel and music system. Retained the front bench seat. Did all my initial long distance driving in this amazing car. This car initiated me to the wonderful world of automobiles and made me a passionate driving enthusiast.I learned the basics of car mechanicals on this car.Shifted to bangalore in 2000. the car remained in Pune and was used sparingly. Finally i 2002 my dad sold the car- to a scrap merchant! That was the one of the sadest days of my life.
I guess i became a Fiat fan forever as i brought a palio sport that my wife drives today.
Read this thread and all old memories came flooding back.
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Old 14th May 2008, 19:04   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gendarmee View Post
We had this green FIAT 1100 59 model, grew up with that around, learnt driving on that, had my first accident on it when i was 4(thats quite a thing, the car saved me)on it.
loved it, but dad gave it away one day coz of parking problems for 3 cars.Would love to get one again. Have another black 56 model.
Forgot to mention the most amazing part of the car, the front seat, it so easily could fit in 3 people, made family trips easier, plus it makes the best car for a long drive with one's beloved...
I still find the hand gears more comfortable than the floor gears for some reason.
Didn't check out this thread before I posted last night, reading through the posts rekindles sweet old memories.
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Old 14th May 2008, 20:48   #69
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Fantastic memories,
Every time I take my car (it is a 76 padmini in original goldendrop color) out it still gets a second look from passersby.
Still a fun car to drive after 94 thousand KM and in stock condition.


My car has a blue acrylic sunshade, the front seat adjustment mechanism still works and when i show that to people, I can see their eye***** drop.
The door light swtch still works, (the car came with a switch only for the driver's side. The engine has never been opened.
The side lift jack with the ratchet handle still works.
I still get a decent 14-15 during my runs to Mysore.

Enjoy the pictures
Attached Thumbnails
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The Premier Automobiles Ltd - The Remembrances Thread-img_0179.jpg  

The Premier Automobiles Ltd - The Remembrances Thread-img_0180.jpg  

The Premier Automobiles Ltd - The Remembrances Thread-img_0181.jpg  

The Premier Automobiles Ltd - The Remembrances Thread-img_0182.jpg  

The Premier Automobiles Ltd - The Remembrances Thread-img_0183.jpg  

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Old 15th May 2008, 10:42   #70
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Dear Boeuff and Gendarmee,

My response to your posts is as follows. For Boeuff, I am giving here some of the things that happened to the Premier Padmini during it's long production run, so you will understand why your car still has a lot of useful life left in it even after 90000 odd kms. For Gendarmee, I will give some details of the 118NE including how we did the project as well as it's related problems.

The Padmini development cycle. Some information:
1965 - current shape introduced
1965 through 1972 - no change except minor instrument orientation etc. Compression ratio 7.3:1. Compression pressure 125 psi.
1973 through 1975 - the fiat became the Premier President and then the Premier Padmini. It is during this time that a very major change happened in the transmission somewhere in 1975 (unfortunately for the worse as specifications started to get diluted in the name of so-called "value engineering"). The details are as follows - the second and third gears are designed to rotate freely on the mainshaft for which the original FIAT design had internally broached bushes which would fit snugly on the mainshaft and rotate with it (nowadays we have needle bearings, it is all elementary). The gears would move freely on these bushes and would transmit power when the dog teeth on the sleeve would engage them one at a time. The keyway broaching operation was removed in the name of "value engineering" and just turned bushes were used. It was felt that the axial force increase during tightening of the drivetrain on the mainshaft would prevent bush rotation. Unfortunately tolerance stacking resulted in torque loss and we had umpteen cases of bush rotation. These bushes would rotate, generate excessive heat and weld themselves on the mainshaft (blue marks could be seen) . Also, the critical end dimension of the bush would reduce due to wear (the tolerance was only 0.1 mm) which would result in the gears sticking on the mainshaft. This led to noise, hard shifting and all sorts of problems, but nobody had the courage to go and tell this to the management. So things started deteriorating. As a trainee, I could only wonder at how people could not understand that some specifications could not be diluted. So, you will find that the transmissions of the early model cars are an absolute delight to drive whereas the later cars were not so good.
1977 - the Premier Padmini Deluxe was launched. This was with 8:1 compression ratio engine and floor shift gears with bucket seats. My father purchased the first car from Maha Auto on 25 November 1977 for 38000 rupees (the normal car was 32000 rupees). It was MMF1845. I was in college and in PAL as a trainee (so I started learning). We used it for 3 years and then sold it for 70000 rupees, such was the demand for the floor gear car.
1986 - the lubrication system of the engine was changed to full flow type. Compression ratio was increased to 7.8:1. The "economy" model was introduced.
1987 - the front triangular "quarter" glasses were removed as "value engineering", saved 40 rupees per car
1991 - the Padmini diesel was introduced. 1700 cars were completely submerged in the floods which happened between 8 and 10 June 1991 (it was almost as bad as 26 July 2005). I was team leader of one of the teams who salvaged these cars. We worked for 21 days continuously.
1994 - the Padmini S1 was introduced
The rest is known.

The 118NE development cycle. Some information:
This project was started in 1984 in order to introduce a "new model car" (as it was known at that time. As I have already given all prototype car information in the forum, I will not repeat. The Nissan aggregates were absolutely fantastic. The Nissan A12 engine derives it's antecedents from the A series Austin Morris engine (yes, our good old Ambassador engine) but just see how Nissan redefined it with a doubke barrel carburettor and silky smooth performance. The F4W56A transmission is a delight to drive. The main issues in the 118NE were front suspension collapse and corrosion. The reason for the front suspension woes was inadequacy of sopt welding strength in the wheelarch area due to some guns not reacing the hard to reach spots and nobody doing anything about it. Aftermarket welding usually solved the problem. Poor body quality led to corrosion issues. Another problem was vapour lock for which I have already given details in the forum. I am still searching for a good 118NE to restore and keep forever.

For anyspecific queries, please PM me.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 15th May 2008, 10:54   #71
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Wow! that looks like a lovingly maitained car.The rally style lights look great. Consider upgrading to alloy wheels, they will complement the colour and car will look stunning. Enjoy your ride- cheerscheers:
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Old 15th May 2008, 11:32   #72
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Quote:
The Nissan A12 engine derives it's antecedents from the A series Austin Morris engine (yes, our good old Ambassador engine) but just see how Nissan redefined it with a doubke barrel carburettor and silky smooth performance.
The Ambassador had the B series engine, the A series engine went in the Austin A35, the Mini etc
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Old 15th May 2008, 18:36   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Boeuff and Gendarmee,



The 118NE development cycle. Some information:
This project was started in 1984 in order to introduce a "new model car" (as it was known at that time. As I have already given all prototype car information in the forum, I will not repeat. The Nissan aggregates were absolutely fantastic. The Nissan A12 engine derives it's antecedents from the A series Austin Morris engine (yes, our good old Ambassador engine) but just see how Nissan redefined it with a doubke barrel carburettor and silky smooth performance. The F4W56A transmission is a delight to drive. The main issues in the 118NE were front suspension collapse and corrosion. The reason for the front suspension woes was inadequacy of sopt welding strength in the wheelarch area due to some guns not reacing the hard to reach spots and nobody doing anything about it. Aftermarket welding usually solved the problem. Poor body quality led to corrosion issues. Another problem was vapour lock for which I have already given details in the forum. I am still searching for a good 118NE to restore and keep forever.

For anyspecific queries, please PM me.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Thanks for those details!
I wasnt aware of them. just that it sported a nissan engine & gearbox.
I dont think its just to compare the Austin-Morris engine to the amby engine, the amby just being one particular generation of austin morris, produced for over 50 years. Nissan completely transformed the engine though!

I have one with with factory AC-green tinted glasses.
75+K and going strong, and absolutely stock condition just a cassette player,seat covers have been added.
It has an electric fuel pump, I've never faced the vapor lock issue ever, However 5 years ago the radiator fluid flow got blocked because of some reason, the car started over heating, till the problem manifested, the valves seats got damaged & we had to get the valves ground to fix it, thats the only major problem we have had so far.
The front suspension kind off "sinks" over time, first time around we got extensions under the coil springs to raise the front, in the 2nd suspension overhaul last year, we got new springs, now that you enlightened me about the welding issue, I'll ask the mechanic to tackle it that way, he worked at PAL, should know about it. Never had a suspension breaking down.
We tackle the suspension issue by driving it slowly over bumps, and its driven in the city at about 40-50, but if we hurdle down a bumpy road the suspension wears out fairly very quickly.
Still is relatively cheap to maintain. AC quality is acceptable for the summer heat.

Body rust-We had had enough of it with the FIAT 1100, the bottom half of the doors, the channels were redone twice, so when we got this car, the underbody & mudguards got a coat of pitch and the insides of the doors & boot got a coat of grease, The only drawback is that I have to unclog the drain holes under the door once in 2 weeks. This has greatly helped there is very little rust problem as such on the the car, the only place it has showed up is near the boot rubber housing above tail lights, got that part scraped, treated & repainted.

This car stands out among cars, even among the latest of the lot. Has a heavy retro feel to it, which I love.
I'm attaching 2 pictures of my 118, the snaps are about 6 months old, taken right after a wash. (Hastily edited in PS because the background wasn't good)

If you really want a good condition 118NE go down to Bangalore, Most Banglore'ians there maintain their cars like Parsi's do, i.e. fantastic maintain'ce,
30-40K will get you an exquisite condition 118NE.

I had a crazy idea about new 118's coming out again, will type it out in another post.

One question, can fit the 138D's front coil spring to the 118NE's front suspension?
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Last edited by gendarmee : 15th May 2008 at 18:49. Reason: adding a question
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Old 16th May 2008, 04:31   #74
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Here is a picture of MZM 7247. I believe this was one of the First prototypes?? And yes that is my dad, (BEHRAM DHABHAR on the forum). OOhh and he still has his hair. And he is thin!!
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Old 16th May 2008, 10:21   #75
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Thats a milion dollar pic Cyrus, looking for retro orignal pics of factory new 118 ne & fiat pics. Do you have prototype pics of the S1 too ?
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