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Old 26th December 2010, 09:21   #316
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

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Originally Posted by ownerofazkaban View Post
I can for sure say that low maintenance cost of Maruti cannot be supported by facts, Its just a mirage , and old age perceptions.

Just run thru bills at any M.A.S.S from Maruti 800 to swifts.
On the contrary, it can be supported by pure common sense. The sheer volume of cars being serviced means an unmatched efficiency of scale, compared to any other brand in India. Besides that, it also means an experienced service staff and a much wider knowledge of problems and their solutions. (There's a post somewhere talking about the jugad-mentality at some of Tata's service centres.)

As far as facts are concerned, I can vouch for my SX4 being serviced at a much lower cost
than my Indica, albeit it was a diesel. To give an example, recently I got a dent job done for ~5000 bucks, which included repainting the bonnet in its' entirety, match that!
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Old 26th December 2010, 12:16   #317
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

I think that people do not mind small rattles and occasional glitches. What they mind is being stranded with a dysfunctional car and looking sheepishly at their 10 or 20 or 30L transport. They also mind being without their vehicle (in most cases the only one they have) for a long time. When you are in the Metro it is at the most an inconvenience to be stranded, but outside it can be frustrating if not out right dangerous.

Most of the buyers look at their vehicles as a transport, a solution to their needs and not as a mistress to be retained in spite of all the mood swings and tantrums. It is to these buyers that MUL product are targeted and they acknowledge the superiority of the product by supporting the company and its products.

In this forum I have read rave reviews of a lot of vehicles; and they are excellent to drive, own and at times cheaper than competition; but how many of these actually sell? Very few. Most have annual sales less than daily sale of major MUL/Hyundai product.

Regarding MASS bills, they are way lower than most of the C & D segment car bills. For the cost of an oil change for these brands you can get a lot of repairs done on MUL vehicles. Will you get an original windshield for 2-5k, or a brake lining for 1-2k for these cars? Most probably you would spend upwards of 15K for the windshield and 10K+ for brakes. Then MUL brakes last at least 40K compared to 20K for luxury brands! I believe that each service for Mercedes or BMW costs 30K+, that represents 2-4 years of service costs for MUL.

Last edited by Aroy : 26th December 2010 at 12:22.
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Old 26th December 2010, 16:22   #318
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

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I believe that each service for Mercedes or BMW costs 30K+, that represents 2-4 years of service costs for MUL.
You should not compare apples to oranges!
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Old 26th December 2010, 17:25   #319
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

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My Pre VVT SX4 ZXi GC is 190mm

41K km, One gruesome Ladakh Trip and this car is still rocking,
+1!

I have the pre-VVT 190 mm Zxi. I love is ground clearance, and prefer the SUVish GC/toughness to a more sedanized, better engined avatar.

I have been on horrible roads - no issues till date. No puncture. No wheel alignment. No major rattles. 20K+ km and running strong.

SX4 is not like an average sedan. It has its pluses and minuses. But its pluses are unique in the Indian scenario - IMO, the only vehicle that can compare with it is the Fusion.
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Old 26th December 2010, 18:12   #320
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

I've had the dubious privilege of driving my Swift Vxi over some really bad dirt roads over the last few thousand kms. A constant 60Kmph over about 30 km of unsurfaced roads with (almost) rally style cornering had absolutely no ill effects on my car. And this was not some once in a while occurrence but pretty much a weekly affair. And to make matters worse, I exceeded my service interval by 3000km. Total service bill after all this was Rs. 3000.
The only damage to the car after all this torture was a worn out wheel bearing (Rs 750 app.).
Rattles a bit and sheet metal is thinner than it should be but a really well built (and engineered) car. 73000km in under 3 years and I remain a Swift fan.

Last edited by Roy.S : 26th December 2010 at 18:16. Reason: Typo
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Old 26th December 2010, 18:31   #321
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

I think that if any perceptions are there regarding Swift and SX4 they would be about how reliable, easy to own, VFM and downright practical these cars are in the longer run.

its much better to live with a few rattles(which can be sorted out) than to be stuck with a car in the middle of nowhere or for that matter running after service personnel to get ones car sorted out. as pointed above it may not be much of a concern in major metros but in smaller towns its gonna be a big pain in the neck. currently swift is the leader in its segment and honestly the only real competition it has would be the i20, which btw has its own share of problems. its the service and easy ownership which makes these cars great success that they are. Again save for the city which is a tad overpriced but still the best in the segment, Sx4 sells pretty well even after 3.75 years of its launch.

i mean look here, on the forum we have a thread regarding the poor service of Skoda, where a guy has taken skoda to the court and many members have sworn off skoda products after looking at that thread, despite the brilliant build quality inside out, all the gizmos, amazing engines and VFM that cars like laura and superb present to the table in their respective segments. What for ........just the service and the concurring resale.

AND yet, despite the fact that in the past a lot more people have faced big problems with Fiat and Ford regarding A.S.S. and bad resale they are lauded here.

Recently i was reading that fiat is actually not doing very well by selling its cars through tata and i was wondering what if history repeats itself. all the guys who own linea and puntos would be on a wild goose chase every time they want a part replaced in their cars, not to mention that the resale of these cars would be peanuts.

I realize that fiesta petrol is a scorcher of a car but then why after having the best roads in the country in delhi it is one of the least common petrol sedans here. the reason is simple .....service and resale!!!

I cant help but feel that this is more of a Maruti bashing thread, by fanboys of the above said brands. looking at the overall package swift is still the best in its segment and taking the price into consideration sx4 is a formidable car in its segment.
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Old 27th December 2010, 02:11   #322
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

@humyum : I do not know how you say Maruti tuned the DDIS better .You pick any phsiycs, mechanical book with regards to efficiency and you will always find it is always better to have a linear response than a non-linear .So it is true that DDIS is fun on open road but in traffic it is a pain with frequent gearshifts and brakes .Also see any sports car , technologically advanced car you will find that power may come suddenly but it is controlled unlike DDIS which is like a button it comes on and off before you know it .The reason as per me why Maruti could sell DDIS well and not Fiat is simply because Maruti used it :-).Even if they could have tuned in some way else it would have still sold .


The one car which Maruti sells well since long due to reasons people put here has already been tested .One Figo put a huge dent in sales of Swift/WagonR .And now Dezire is getting blazed by Etios .The day is not far as market matures Maruti will be a forgotten .
The reason is simple look at Ford, Chevorlet , Fiat , VW , Tata with each product they have inched closer to people whereas maruti ha snot been able to provide / improve upon as a product built wise & Feature wise.

I believe the next 2-3 years will be interesting to see .
Also now that Nano will sport 900CC twin cylinder diesel who will actually buy a Maruti alto , wagonr , estilo .Nano ups the stake in efficiency , safety (Which car of Maruti Alto,WagonR, Estilo has NCAP ?: I believe not one), interior space , practicality for city .

Also people bring in *** etc. In so many ownership threads the number of instances where a car came to a standstill is minuscule .
And If others as per Maruti fans cannot give good products i ask why cannot Maruti provide a better build quality , taught suspension , HPS , few more features ?
I think above is a valid question why cant(or should i ask why dont?) Maruti remove niggles of thin sheet metal , poor suspension , thin tyres, poor brakes across the range , better factory tyres , MID's (and not just ac , power steering , power windows )?

Last edited by Trust_In_Thrust : 27th December 2010 at 02:27.
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Old 27th December 2010, 02:25   #323
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

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Originally Posted by Trust_In_Thrust View Post
The one car which Maruti sells well since long due to reasons people put here has already been tested .One Figo put a huge dent in sales of Swift/WagonR .And now Dezire is getting blazed by Etios .The day is not far as market matures Maruti will be a forgotten .
The reason is simple look at Ford, Chevorlet , Fiat , VW , Tata with each product they have inched closer to people whereas maruti ha snot been able to provide / improve upon as a product built wise & Feature wise.

I believe the next 2-3 years will be interesting to see .
Also now that Nano will sport 900CC twin cylinder diesel who will actually buy a Maruti alto , wagonr , estilo .Nano ups the stake in efficiency , safety (Which car of Maruti Alto,WagonR, Estilo has NCAP ?: I believe not one), interior space , practicality for city .
Maruti Suzuki Monthly sales Report (28% growth Nov-10 v Nov-09)

Didn't Morphy warn you about the Blue pill?

Ok, seriously though, there cannot be any rational explanation to such speculative and tad arrogant forecasts. At the peril of receiving infractions, I can only request that you desist from sharing your misconceptions.
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Old 27th December 2010, 09:34   #324
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

Mods if i am going off topic please remove the thread , I have wagon R and it has ran 110000 kms completely on CNG . We have been using it for loading from day one . 300 kgms of weight on it . We use to drove it delhi to faridabad . And still its running fine . And we have been driving on roads completely on potholes , rough roads . We have done suspension overhaul twice thats it . Still that car can easily drive with weights on .

This is my ownership experience with maruti . We have done same with earlier wagon R , two maruti 800 , two maruti vans . I have one versa also running on LPG . Now can you please tell which cars handle this brutal experience . According to your comments about maruti , if if it was true then that car would have broken into pieces reaching 50000 kms .

According to me Maruti rocks , hyundai has better plastics . But according to our needs , indian roads , low cost of repairs . I will got for maruti any day . If you are talking about swift diesel . I have one and i have 195 profile tyres with 15 inch profile . And it can corner any curves i want .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Trust_In_Thrust View Post
@humyum : I do not know how you say Maruti tuned the DDIS better .You pick any phsiycs, mechanical book with regards to efficiency and you will always find it is always better to have a linear response than a non-linear .So it is true that DDIS is fun on open road but in traffic it is a pain with frequent gearshifts and brakes .Also see any sports car , technologically advanced car you will find that power may come suddenly but it is controlled unlike DDIS which is like a button it comes on and off before you know it .The reason as per me why Maruti could sell DDIS well and not Fiat is simply because Maruti used it :-).Even if they could have tuned in some way else it would have still sold .


The one car which Maruti sells well since long due to reasons people put here has already been tested .One Figo put a huge dent in sales of Swift/WagonR .And now Dezire is getting blazed by Etios .The day is not far as market matures Maruti will be a forgotten .
The reason is simple look at Ford, Chevorlet , Fiat , VW , Tata with each product they have inched closer to people whereas maruti ha snot been able to provide / improve upon as a product built wise & Feature wise.

I believe the next 2-3 years will be interesting to see .
Also now that Nano will sport 900CC twin cylinder diesel who will actually buy a Maruti alto , wagonr , estilo .Nano ups the stake in efficiency , safety (Which car of Maruti Alto,WagonR, Estilo has NCAP ?: I believe not one), interior space , practicality for city .

Also people bring in *** etc. In so many ownership threads the number of instances where a car came to a standstill is minuscule .
And If others as per Maruti fans cannot give good products i ask why cannot Maruti provide a better build quality , taught suspension , HPS , few more features ?
I think above is a valid question why cant(or should i ask why dont?) Maruti remove niggles of thin sheet metal , poor suspension , thin tyres, poor brakes across the range , better factory tyres , MID's (and not just ac , power steering , power windows )?
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Old 27th December 2010, 09:58   #325
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

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You should not compare apples to oranges!
The only features I was comparing is the reliability and service costs. I would gladly pay 30L+ if (and only if) my vehicle was built to last and have reasonable maintenance costs. I do not subscribe to the theory that after paying this sum, I should be saddled with huge service costs coupled with doubtful reliability, just to enjoy those fleeting moments of extacy. OK if you insist, I think of Lexus, a brand that gives you all the bells and whistles and none of the reliability issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trust_In_Thrust View Post
@humyum : I do not know how you say Maruti tuned the DDIS better .You pick any phsiycs, mechanical book with regards to efficiency and you will always find it is always better to have a linear response than a non-linear .So it is true that DDIS is fun on open road but in traffic it is a pain with frequent gearshifts and brakes .Also see any sports car , technologically advanced car you will find that power may come suddenly but it is controlled unlike DDIS which is like a button it comes on and off before you know it .The reason as per me why Maruti could sell DDIS well and not Fiat is simply because Maruti used it :-).Even if they could have tuned in some way else it would have still sold .


The one car which Maruti sells well since long due to reasons people put here has already been tested .One Figo put a huge dent in sales of Swift/WagonR .And now Dezire is getting blazed by Etios .The day is not far as market matures Maruti will be a forgotten .
The reason is simple look at Ford, Chevorlet , Fiat , VW , Tata with each product they have inched closer to people whereas maruti ha snot been able to provide / improve upon as a product built wise & Feature wise.

I believe the next 2-3 years will be interesting to see .
Also now that Nano will sport 900CC twin cylinder diesel who will actually buy a Maruti alto , wagonr , estilo .Nano ups the stake in efficiency , safety (Which car of Maruti Alto,WagonR, Estilo has NCAP ?: I believe not one), interior space , practicality for city .

Also people bring in *** etc. In so many ownership threads the number of instances where a car came to a standstill is minuscule .
And If others as per Maruti fans cannot give good products i ask why cannot Maruti provide a better build quality , taught suspension , HPS , few more features ?
I think above is a valid question why cant(or should i ask why dont?) Maruti remove niggles of thin sheet metal , poor suspension , thin tyres, poor brakes across the range , better factory tyres , MID's (and not just ac , power steering , power windows )?
1. Tuning an engine, peaks the torque curve. The area of the torque curve remains same, but peak torque, hence peak power increases, and with it the peak performance, of course the torque on both the side lobes decreases. A flatter torque gives better spread of power wrt the RPM, making daily ride easier, but a peaked torque gives better performance if you have a gear box to match the torque band width. Racers are always tuning their engines to get a higher power at the expense of more aggressive gear changes.

2. Please pardon me if I am being repetitive. MUL sells because it gives the buyer a better ownership package, and not necessarily a better machine. A distance analogy is that of IBM of yester years, which always had average machines compared to its competitors, but gave peace of mind to its users by taking over the hassles of ownership, leaving its users to concentrate on their business. The same analogy applies to majority of MUL clientele, they are happy owning MUL as their ownership is free of surprises and is largely hassle free. If you want excitement from your vehicle there are a lot of competing brands to satisfy you, but may be the larger public just does not want it!

3. as I do not see the brands you claim to have eaten into MUL sales. If statistics are to be believed, the sales of the competition is extremely low, even pitiable as they have annual sales (and struggling at that) to match daily sales of MUL.

4. Regarding "better products" the buying public just does not endorse it. MUL had to stop the sales of Alto Vxi (1.1L), the Baleno never really took off and now A Star lags far behind the other models. We may have our favourite must have features, and there are manufacturers catering to that segment, but do not expect any seller to ignore where the "bread and butter" comes from, and MUL is doing just that. It is phasing out its one time best seller the M800, not because of the BS-IV, but because its sales were far behind the Alto. So if the feature sells, rest assured the manufacturer will give them, else hope that some one will cater to the niche market so that we can get the feature we want.
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Old 27th December 2010, 09:59   #326
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

I can clearly see that some people are biased against Maruti as a brand. They should keep in mind that every month Maruti is selling consistantly more than a Lakh cars. All those buyers are taking a conscious decision after knowing the pros and cons, and after comparing with other cars.

The negative aspects should no doubt be discussed , but with an intention of helping the manufacturer to improve the product. Not to predict it's doom. It applies not only to Maruti but to all other manufacturers.

Let us be more balanced while expressing our views.

Murthy
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Old 27th December 2010, 14:20   #327
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

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There is SX4 accident in Accidents in India thread .Look at that car , i believe few people died in it also and this when it was just rammed from behind.There was a linea also in same thread on which a 15ton dumper with stones collapsed yet all four people came out alive and the car still stood its ground .

Peace
You conveniently avoid mentioning the fact that all the occupants in the SX4 were fully drunk. The ramming from behind is speculation. No one has seen what had actually happened. Do you declare the car (SX4) as not safe, despite the fact that the accident could have been because of the overspeeding and subsequent loss of control due to the drunken driving?

No car is safe in such idiot's hands.

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Old 27th December 2010, 14:28   #328
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

Bought my Swift in June 2006 (my first car - had to be red, after all i pride myself being a tifosi), Was young back then and today almost 5 years later here are the list of problems i've seen. Please note that the car has completed 75k kms and have been maintained at Bimal motors for every 5k kms.

1. Paint Quality - Horrible. I still have some matchbox / hotwheels cars back from 1980's that have better paint on them. Rust issues on doors, inner beadings and pillars from 3rd year onwards. This is an ongoing issue and the only option is to replace the doors, I'm not sure when rust would spread to chassis. You can blame Bangalore water, but keep in mind there are other makes of cars in my apartment being washed daily and have no rust issues so far (Damn the Europeans)

2. Rattling - Much has been said about the rattling issues of Swift, I had rattling issues from week 1. I have complained this at every service (15 so far) and have been told to simply expect them from swift, thats how the car is made. Rattling prevalent from Door, Dashboard, Interior plastics. I haven't bothered sound proofing and the only solution was to drive with loud music

3. Stock Tyres - Maruti should be tried in court for manslaughter on this one. Being a Vxi the tires were too thin, The car is a sweet handler it begs you to take hard corners and when you give in the tires will inevitably kill you. Yes i understand that it cuts costs and increases mileage, but still it is unacceptable. I upgraded to Yoko Es 100's and that has been the best money that i have spend on the car so far.

4. Build Quality - Last service i was told to change my clutch, Stunning considering that i have already changed two clutch so far. One at 18k and the other at 55k. Although you can blame my hard driving as a contributing factor, 3 clutch in 75k is race car territory and I have been driving for a while and i dont ride my clutch at all.

5. False perception of cheap maintainance - Maruti is cheap to maintain right? Wrong. They are bloody expensive to maintain. My friend who has a Honda Civic spend 1/4th of the money that i spend on my car in maintainance by 25k kms. He drives really really hard. A few things i don't understand about our country in General are: "25k to fix? Sure i'll pay i don't want to claim insurance because i like those NCB's" <Ah! how much do you save on premium?>, "You bought petrol when diesel is available?, I have a diesel car and i have done 20k kms in 5 years and i have saved a lot of money in fuel bills" <How about the extra money you paid for a diesel car, your running is way to less to break even> and finally "Maruti cars are cheap to maintain" <No its not, on the long run you end up spending more>

Moral of the story: I'm not buying a Maruti again, I'd rather go to work moonwalking.
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Old 27th December 2010, 21:13   #329
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

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Bought my Swift in June 2006 (my first car - had to be red, after all i pride myself being a tifosi), Was young back then and today almost 5 years later here are the list of problems i've seen. Please note that the car has completed 75k kms and have been maintained at Bimal motors for every 5k kms.

1. Paint Quality - Horrible. I still have some matchbox / hotwheels cars back from 1980's that have better paint on them. Rust issues on doors, inner beadings and pillars from 3rd year onwards. This is an ongoing issue and the only option is to replace the doors, I'm not sure when rust would spread to chassis. You can blame Bangalore water, but keep in mind there are other makes of cars in my apartment being washed daily and have no rust issues so far (Damn the Europeans)

2. Rattling - Much has been said about the rattling issues of Swift, I had rattling issues from week 1. I have complained this at every service (15 so far) and have been told to simply expect them from swift, thats how the car is made. Rattling prevalent from Door, Dashboard, Interior plastics. I haven't bothered sound proofing and the only solution was to drive with loud music

3. Stock Tyres - Maruti should be tried in court for manslaughter on this one. Being a Vxi the tires were too thin, The car is a sweet handler it begs you to take hard corners and when you give in the tires will inevitably kill you. Yes i understand that it cuts costs and increases mileage, but still it is unacceptable. I upgraded to Yoko Es 100's and that has been the best money that i have spend on the car so far.

4. Build Quality - Last service i was told to change my clutch, Stunning considering that i have already changed two clutch so far. One at 18k and the other at 55k. Although you can blame my hard driving as a contributing factor, 3 clutch in 75k is race car territory and I have been driving for a while and i dont ride my clutch at all.

5. False perception of cheap maintainance - Maruti is cheap to maintain right? Wrong. They are bloody expensive to maintain. My friend who has a Honda Civic spend 1/4th of the money that i spend on my car in maintainance by 25k kms. He drives really really hard. A few things i don't understand about our country in General are: "25k to fix? Sure i'll pay i don't want to claim insurance because i like those NCB's" <Ah! how much do you save on premium?>, "You bought petrol when diesel is available?, I have a diesel car and i have done 20k kms in 5 years and i have saved a lot of money in fuel bills" <How about the extra money you paid for a diesel car, your running is way to less to break even> and finally "Maruti cars are cheap to maintain" <No its not, on the long run you end up spending more>

Moral of the story: I'm not buying a Maruti again, I'd rather go to work moonwalking.
1. In my 20+ years of MUL ownership, I have yet to face rust issues. Even my 10 year old Esteem is rust free. In fact inspite of dents and dings the Esteem original paint has not cracked (I never bothered to paint it as there are no deep scratches exposing metal, just dents), and an inspector from True Value was amazed at the ten year old paint quality.

2. Never really noticed rattling. May be I am used to it as I started with Ambassadors and Fiats. Still I would say I may have been lucky.

3. I agree absolutely regarding stock tyres. Every MUL I bought, I changed tyres immediately, though I never go for broader tyres, replacements have much better ride and life.

4. Clutch wear is directly proportionate to its usage (and/or abuse). In my cars the clutch lasts at least 40K, in both my sons case it lasts barely 15-17K. May be MUL clutch is sensitive to harsh use, but as I have said I am perfectly happy. Incidentally I get at least 3-5km/l more than my sons do from the same vehicle.

5. I would tend to agree with you that MUL product is not designed for harsh and rash driving, like say the European brands (that is why you pay more and have more expensive service costs). At the same time I know of a lot of MUL cars doing 1-2L km with only scheduled maintenance as indicated in the owners manual. Again I would point out that the way both my sons drive reflects on the wear and tear of their vehicles. They manage to get one third the life out of brakes and clutch. But even with their harsh usage, their cars do not rattle. It may be that there was a bad patch some years ago, when their products rattle, but neither 5+ year not current products rattle (this purely my observation and not a result of any survey/opinion poll).
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Old 27th December 2010, 22:52   #330
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

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4. Build Quality - Last service i was told to change my clutch, Stunning considering that i have already changed two clutch so far. One at 18k and the other at 55k. Although you can blame my hard driving as a contributing factor, 3 clutch in 75k is race car territory and I have been driving for a while and i dont ride my clutch at all.
What were symptoms because of which you changed the clutch at 18k, 55k & 75k?
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