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Old 29th December 2010, 23:11   #346
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

Disclaimer: To begin with, I understand that every member has the right to express his/her opinion. And with all due to respect to their views and opinions, I would like to add my two cents but do not mean to offend anyone. The prices quoted are near approximate values.

I came up with my own hypothesis:

Maruti has the largest market share in the passenger car business over all. Keeping the same market share in mind, if we extrapolate this percentage, on T-BHP, I believe that majority of the T-BHP members currently own Marutis. I am sure most of these members will report problems, good points etc...same way, a lot of non-Maruti members will also report problems/good points etc. However, the quantity or the sheer number is of the essence over here. Just because majority of reports are reported by Maruti members does not mean that Marutis are problematic in Majority. It is simple, since the cars are in majority, the problems discussed too will be in Majority.
People have compared Swift with Polo, i-20 etc. Sure, they are good cars, but problems have been reported by their owners too! For example, out of 10 Polo (for example only) ownership reviews, 2-3 people have reported problems. But out of 100 Swift ownership reviews, may 20-30 have reported problems. The essence over here is the ratio/percentage. One should not, I repeat, one should NOT compare and say that 20-30 Swifts are problematic as compared to only 2-3 Polo (for example only) related problems.
Keeping the above hypothesis, it reflects even worse on the Polo (just used an example), as they charge 1.1.5Lakhs (or even more) as premium, and still they have an equal "percentage/ratio" of problems. Just because Maruti is most spoken about, doesnt necessarily mean it makes majority of Faulty Cars. Positivies and negatives apply to other manufacturers too!

I have owned 4 Marutis in the last in 20 years, I have had share of my problems and I hate Maruti for that. Hence I believe, I have developed a neutral viewpoint. Let's take this further...

M800:
People complaint that the car is crap etc. Sure, it is not the best, but guys, out of the 2.57 OTR Mumbai price, approximately 40% goes in taxes. What we see is only the registration, insurance octroi etc. But what about the Excise duties (sure there are duty cuts etc), VAT and various other taxes? I believe the car in the Factory without the taxes costs way lesser. So Why does one say "M800 is crap for 2.57Lakhs"? infact it should be said that M800 actually costs only probably 1.5.1.70 Lakhs, so it is good enough for the price! The cost of Swift too will be much lesser. So one must not the blame the manufacturer,but also undersand the other costs involved! So the premium that other companies charge may be purely used in providing better quality products/spares, of course with the chance of them too going faulty/Kaput.
I have owned 2 M800, and boy, it is "CHEAP". The Samosa kind of clearance lights, which are placed right next to the Headlights in the 2000 onwards models costs only RS 75 at MASS! ONLY RS. 75.
The unpainted brand new fender costs Rs. 750 at MASS
The bonnet costs Rs. ~2000
The Card Board dickey panel costs Rs. 46
The side door panels made of cardboard costs rs. 180-200 Each.
The Rear Lamps cost Rs. 450 including Taxes

I am sure none of the cars beat Maruti in terms of spare parts; I have owned a Zen, which had a similar story.

My A-star, isn't cheap, sure, but the spare parts are 15%-20% cheaper compared to Hyundai. If I am not mistaken, I had read the spare price comparo in OverDrive/Auto India, Autocar etc, the cheapest was Maruti, followed by GM's Spark.

I have heard suspension noise in a brand new i-20 of my friend, the AC is not that great. One of my friends own a dolphin type Honda city. The doors started rusting and had developed holes near the Hinges. Another friends Santro (old) had badly rusted body panels near the hinges!
My cousin's Lexus had premature suspension failure; the same cousin's brand new prius has some kind of a wierd fault in the Electricals!

I compare my brand new A-star's paint quality and finish to I-20, Polo, Fiat and feel disappointed. But when quoted only Rs. 1500 for full bumper painting as opposed to 2800 for painting a Polo's bumper, I feel very happy! Ultimately, it boils down to "Itna Paisa mein Itna Hi Milega!"

My conclusion is, that problems exists with all manufacturers, be it Maruti, Hyundai, Volkwagen, Honda, Toyota,Fiat etc, but one should keep in mind other factors, statistics in mind before passing judgements, which at times may be misleading. Second, a lot of components have OEM suppliers which are under tremendous pressure and are not able to meet the demands, so they should be blamed too!
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Old 29th December 2010, 23:34   #347
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

My close friend owns a 2005 WagonR and I own a 2005 Santro.
Just a quick look at both cars and you will know that my Santro feels much newer, though I am more careless than him about taking care of my car.
Also, the overall build quality and the interior plastic quality is clearly ahead of the WagonR.

This is just an example but it is true for other segments as well - Look at the Swift vs I20/Polo Or SX4 vs Vento/ANHC.

Overall, Maruti cars lack in the build quality as well as interior quality. Good news for Maruti is that buyers in the sub-5 lakh segment care more about the quality aspect and more about VFM,brand and A.S.S. That is why they are able to sell so many cars each month.
But once you move to the 8 lakh+ segment, quality becomes more important and no wonder Maruti struggles to sell cars in the higher segments.
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Old 30th December 2010, 00:25   #348
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

Maruti has changed my perceptions of a diesel hatchback, for sure!

In my understanding, Maruti decided that people who buys a diesel hatchback do not need any safety features(read Airbags), leave alone the creature comforts like height adjustable steering, automatic climate control, rear wiper, alloys etc.

I still fail to understand why Maruti does not offer electrically adjustable ORVM in Maruti Swift Dzire, when they can offer the same feature in Wagon-R, which cost approximately 200-300k less. Yes, I'm confused!

Despite having less features than the competition, people still prefer Maruti over other cars. Maruti for sure knows, how to make people buy their cars! I do appreciate Maruti for that.

But at the end of the day, perceptions vary from person to person.

Last edited by Klub Class : 30th December 2010 at 00:34.
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Old 30th December 2010, 00:43   #349
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

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Originally Posted by karan1609 View Post
Ultimately, it boils down to "Itna Paisa mein Itna Hi Milega!"
absolutely....if sx4 was priced at honda city or tjet levels it would be a car which would be much superior than them. add the *** and it would be the ultimate car.
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Old 30th December 2010, 00:43   #350
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

After having the cars of the following brands in my family i.e. Hyundai, Ford, Fiat, Tata, Skoda, Maruti Suzuki, VW, Mercedes Benz & Morris Oxford.

I can say one thing for sure that people here are not looking at car ownership from a pros & cons kind of view.

Certain points of importance are:

1. No car is perfect,
2. Due the above mentioned point, each car is a compromise as none of them have all of the same attributes. One simply picks the most promising or appealing compromise.
3. All brands have certain short comings.
4. The Service that you get at any Company Authorised Service Center or Independent garage is more dependent on your relationship with your service advisor + the mechanic working on your car than on the works or floor manager or the company itself.


P.S.: Request to mods kindly close this thread.
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Old 30th December 2010, 01:02   #351
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

Quote:
Originally Posted by maglev View Post
After having the cars of the following brands in my family i.e. Hyundai, Ford, Fiat, Tata, Skoda, Maruti Suzuki, VW, Mercedes Benz & Morris Oxford.

I can say one thing for sure that people here are not looking at car ownership from a pros & cons kind of view.

Certain points of importance are:

1. No car is perfect,
2. Due the above mentioned point, each car is a compromise as none of them have all of the same attributes. One simply picks the most promising or appealing compromise.
3. All brands have certain short comings.
4. The Service that you get at any Company Authorised Service Center or Independent garage is more dependent on your relationship with your service advisor + the mechanic working on your car than on the works or floor manager or the company itself.


P.S.: Request to mods kindly close this thread.
as pointed out by our fellow member, its on our personal experience that what brand we choose. what people refer to as bad experiences can be due to many factors such as manufacturing faults or customer's own fault. (for eg getting ice or security systems installed by untrained installers and then complaining for rattles). so its basically on one's own experiences and likes that one chooses the vehicle.

pro's and cons can be contradicting for different consumers.
1. low ground clearance of a vehicle could be a problem for some and at the same time it also improves the traction.

2. the shape of the vehicle can be appreciated by some, whereas some may not like it . for example the nhc (when it was launched)

PS:
1. this is a personal view and i do respect the views of my fellow members
2. i am sure that most of us would agree with the conclusion provided by maglev.
3. Request to mods kindly close this thread
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Old 30th December 2010, 09:03   #352
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

Infact, forgot to add the problems one of my friends is facing with his 4 year old accent. right from the 3rd year onwards, the plastic on his steering wheel started peeling off. The steering looks very ugly today. I've seen a couple of old design Santros with the same problem. Besides this, the beige plastics have turned yellowish. This friend parks his car in shade and is driven only by him. My 10 years old M800, with so called "Poor quality" plastics did not even have a dry patch, forget tearing! Probably, very soon I will post some pics of my friends Hyundai Accent.

The above mentioned observations are in continuation to the "all mangufacturers have problems".
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Old 30th December 2010, 10:42   #353
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

Can't help wondering whether this thread would have started if
(1) Instead of Maruti Suzuki, if it was just Suzuki. The Indian word Maruti is not liked by us Indians. It shaves off the "phoren" brand image
(2) Instead of Maruti Suzuki, imagine for a moment what if the name was Maruti Honda or Maruti Toyota?


Last edited by bkbkr1212 : 30th December 2010 at 10:43. Reason: spelling correction
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Old 30th December 2010, 18:03   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkbkr1212 View Post
Can't help wondering whether this thread would have started if
(1) Instead of Maruti Suzuki, if it was just Suzuki. The Indian word Maruti is not liked by us Indians. It shaves off the "phoren" brand image
(2) Instead of Maruti Suzuki, imagine for a moment what if the name was Maruti Honda or Maruti Toyota?

Believe me. People would still complain, irrespective of the brand-name.

Maruti has been riding on the goodwill they created over the past 2.5 decades (well deserved, I agree), but are now at a point where customers are looking beyond it and demanding genuine quality upgrades, and aren't willing to settle for just the 'India drives home in a Maruti' rhetoric.

It's just that Toyota/Honda are comparatively newer brands and haven't reached the 'We won't buy just because you're so-and-so' point with the customers yet. Their time will come. The buying public spares no-one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karan1609 View Post
Infact, forgot to add the problems one of my friends is facing with his 4 year old accent. right from the 3rd year onwards, the plastic on his steering wheel started peeling off. The steering looks very ugly today. I've seen a couple of old design Santros with the same problem. Besides this, the beige plastics have turned yellowish. This friend parks his car in shade and is driven only by him. My 10 years old M800, with so called "Poor quality" plastics did not even have a dry patch, forget tearing! Probably, very soon I will post some pics of my friends Hyundai Accent.

The above mentioned observations are in continuation to the "all mangufacturers have problems".
I would readily admit to the steering peeling bit (my 20006-model accent has the same problem, the beige coat has worn off on the horn-pad edges and the hand-slots), but the dashboard discoloration thing is not true at all. I treat my car well, and the dashboard even today is as good as new. I've received quite a few compliments from Maruti owners (some grudgingly) about the long-lasting plastic part quality on my Hyundai.

Hyundai at one point were far worse than Maruti in interior quality, but the difference is the direction they chose to take. They're constantly going up, while Maruti is dipping south. I myself can tell the difference by comparing my Accent with the i10s/20s.

Last edited by bblost : 30th December 2010 at 18:14. Reason: Please use multi quote when replying to multiple posts. Thanks.
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Old 4th January 2011, 10:10   #355
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post


I would readily admit to the steering peeling bit (my 20006-model accent has the same problem, the beige coat has worn off on the horn-pad edges and the hand-slots), but the dashboard discoloration thing is not true at all.
I think over here you meant that it is not true in your own case, as your comment sounded as if what I am saying is not true! I was only referring to my friend's car and did not pass a blanket/stereotypical statement for Hyundai.
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Old 4th January 2011, 20:37   #356
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

I was never a big fan of Maruti Suzuki, to start with. For starters they could never make a decent sedan. The Baleno was way overpriced when I bought my Accent way back when. And I was thrilled to bits with Hyundai service, so never missed MAS.

Though I drove my BIL's M800 a fair bit, I didn't become pro-Maruti till I actually bought my own used Swift in mid-2009. I must confess that I am a complete Maruti fanboi now. I have heard a lot of complaints about Maruti vehicles on this forum, and from some friends, but in my own personal experience, have only good things to say about my baby.

Just going back to GTO's original post, let me provide my opinions on each of his points:

Poor build quality- Perhaps. My Swift dents easy. I console myself saying these blemishes add character! But it's more than made up for by the excellent finish.
Persistent (and significant) rattles in first couple of thousand kilometers- Well, this is one area I have absolutely NO complaints. Maybe I just lucked out? My Swift is 56K km down as I type this, but a lot of people still ask me if it's a new car (as in, less than 2 years old). I have one friend who insists that my car rattles but he's unable to point out anything specific and I suspect he's buying into the comon belief rather than making an observation!
Interior part quality sucks- I beg to disagree! Once reason I rejected the ANHC as my next car purchase is that I thought the interiors looked bad *compared to my Swift*. I think the interiors are rather understated and elegant. Give me that over over-pimped and garish any day! To be fair, the other cars in MS stable may not be great looking inside (I don't know).
Uneven panel gaps- True. Hyundais seem much better put together. I can live with this, though.
Parts falling off- Never.
Low refinement and vibrations- My one complaint is about NVH levels- at high speeds too much engine and tyre noise leaks into the cabin and you can barely hear the stereo. But the engine per se is hardly noisy and vibraty!
Poor NVH (e.g. Horn is too loud on the inside)- As above.
Clutch failures- The problem is MASS insisting on *replacing* clutches before their due date! Swift clutches have a habit of "hardening" after about 25-30K km. I was lucky I was warned about this. The trick is to ignore their requests to replace and just keep going. Mine softened out soon enough.

Just my tuppence- no offence intended to anyone.
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Old 4th January 2011, 23:03   #357
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Default Re: The SX4 / Swift Effect on Perceptions

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I think over here you meant that it is not true in your own case, as your comment sounded as if what I am saying is not true! I was only referring to my friend's car and did not pass a blanket/stereotypical statement for Hyundai.
Exactly.

What I meant to say is my car's dash hasn't faded or discolored at all. And I'm definitely not accusing you of stereotyping. I love my car, but I'm not blind to its shortcomings.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 4th January 2011 at 23:05.
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